1. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    Seen this a few times and have no explanation except wear and pad movement.
    20170420_090247.jpg
     
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  2. Todd the Cleaner

    Todd the Cleaner Todd Cottino
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    Pile reversal.

    There have been some really good threads about this, I remember one in particular a couple years ago. I'll find it when I get home and post the link to it here in this thread.
     
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  3. emeraldclean

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    Pile reversal. Just like a part in your hair. One side of the part your hair lays oneway other side of part hair lays the other way.
    I show the customer by getting on my hands and knees and running my hand across the carpet to SHOW them the reversal of pile. I like to use the part in your hair comparison as this usually makes them understand ... line, shading etc.
     
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  4. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    Hopefully someone can chime in with an explanation of what causes it. This house the carpet was 15 years old and the customer wasn't worried about it but it would be nice to be able to explain it better to them.
     
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  5. Scott W

    Scott W Preferred Vendor
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    There are 4 or 5 good theories about what cause pile reversal. Anyone of them may be true in any given circumstance. There are 100 more thoeries about the cause that I would equate to those who believe the moon landing was faked.

    I have seen the issue happen in the same place, same pattern. even when new carpet, different style of carpet was installed.

    Some fibers are more sensitive to heat. I think hot solution lines can cause the problem sometimes, but I have seen many cases where that answer did not fit the conditions.

    Electrostatic charges, magnetism, the placement of ductwork or other things below the floor, traffic patterns are just some of the explanations I have heard.
     
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  6. Carlo Pro

    Carlo Pro Well-Known Member

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    Pile reversal is mostly permanent, be clear it isn't your fault and all the fix out there are temporary
    Rake super hard or use your CRB to lift the pile.
     
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  7. jtsunbrite

    jtsunbrite Well-Known Member

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    Scott I used some solvent on a tar stain once in a rental I take care of,, it started there the next time I cleaned it it was a foot longer and has now over the past 6 cleanings, went down the hallway just like in the pic above,,,, My theory is backing damage, not enough to cause a bubble, but enough to make it expand with walking and wear and tear.. but a shift in the backing to release the tention of the pattern
     
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  8. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    I started thinking the same thing the more I looked at it, it looks like a snake had sliddered across it :eek:
     
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  9. jtsunbrite

    jtsunbrite Well-Known Member

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    I would love to hear a carpet company explain it...
     
  10. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    Hot solution line sounds like something a customer would blame on us, I did have the heat set at 200 but do that all the time.
     
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  11. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    Carpet manufacturer or carpet sales?
     
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  12. jtsunbrite

    jtsunbrite Well-Known Member

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    manufacturer
     
  13. Anderson

    Anderson Active Member

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    What solution did you spray down
    What truckmount
    What wand or tool
    Did you prescrub

    Looks like its pile carpet with pad not even glue down
    I domt think i have evere had that happen?
    Problem is with most customers it wqsnt like that before you cleaned it.....
    After you cleaned it it looked like that...
    So you caused it....you solve it.......
     
  14. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    I have seen it once or twice before.

    Preload 5
    Amtex Inferno 500
    Wand
    No pre srub

    Carpet is 15 year old nylon, the area in the picture is the upstairs hall leading from stairs to 2 bedrooms and a bath.
     
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  15. SAA

    SAA Well-Known Member

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    It is considered a characteristic of the carpet. it occurs in all types and styles of carpet.
    It can be caused by traffic and it can just simply occur.
    As Todd brought out, we had a major discussion on this before with a lot of details outlined.

    Manufacturers have commented on this as stated above, a characteristic of the carpet. It is not a defect, it is not a part of manufacturing it in not related to the construction of the goods and there have been many, many attempts to put the cause back onto the manufacturer but they have all failed. A large part of this is because no one can prove why it occurs and on what level it can occur. This has had numerous attempts at engineers and scientist coming up with theories but as of yet all un-provable.
    The gravitational pull of the moon; the ions in the atmosphere; the ions from the HVAC System; and the list goes on and on.

    In reality, it is an optical illusion since it is dependent on lighting and the reflection of that light. As Scott brought out, it can occur with different fiber types. It can occur in one area and that carpet can be replaced and the exact pattern will occur on a new and different carpet put down, showing very plainly it had nothing to do with the carpet but with whatever forces have occurred in that area. This list goes on and on as well.

    It has been clearly proven it has nothing to do with the manufacturing process so it cannot be blamed on the manufacturer. It has been taken to court many times and it is never proven. I personally have been involved with attempts at arbitration and court cases and it never even gets to first base since no one can clearly identify why this occurs (barring the ones clearly from traffic which do not apply here)and if this cannot be done, then there is no place to put the blame.

    It is very interesting and it occurs all over the place. It is an interesting subject. It simply has not been proven or repeatable with proof to clearly show who would be at fault. I have my own ideas of what causes it but those are just my ideas.

    Here is a little clip to show what can be seen all over the country. Start looking at your oriental rugs and see how many have this. A large amount of them and yet it is accepted as a characteristic of a rug as well.

    How do we explain it to a customer? Show them the pile lay test and it will show what is explained here. Flood it with light and take away the shadows (actually the way the light is reflected) or have them walk from one side to the other to see the difference as shown in the video clip.



    SAA
     
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  16. Todd the Cleaner

    Todd the Cleaner Todd Cottino
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  17. jtsunbrite

    jtsunbrite Well-Known Member

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    Steve do you really think it is not a defect? I have been seeing this occur in all types of carpets forever just as you. Do you think it has to do with how they attach the carpeting to the backing? Because that makes the most logical sense ?
    Oriental rugs I can see it happening the most because every step we take on a rug , the whole rug vibrates and over time In my opinion the backing can weaken? that's my take on it

    Same with like you said above it can happen in the same traffic areas over and over with different carpets

    I cant seem to remember this happening in the older jute backing, did you see it with the older carpets?
     
  18. SAA

    SAA Well-Known Member

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    jtsunbrite,

    I am not arguing there is no defect or maybe the whole foundation is a problem, the issue is what can or cannot be solved or more important, proven.

    One major issue that brings up a huge question mark in my mind is it can occur in the same place with different carpet. Also, that the same carpet does not have the same effect from the same run in a different location, this, to me, takes away from the manufacturing and places the blame on some external force of some sort. Now, to try to explain this comment, I will share a couple of examples that I personally dealt with related to this.

    A time share resort in Orlando, had installed about 44,000 yards of goods, after a short period of time the pile reversal was horrible. This was not from traffic as it had not been put to use yet and traffic was not the issue. This first install was olefin. So, after a lot of explaining and information, this carpet was all taken up and a completely new run was used to replace it. The change was made to nylon. In a short period of time this carpet also changed and had the same problem. Different fibers, different manufacturers and the outcome was the same. I cannot see how this could be from a manufacturing situation.
    This was one outstanding example I personally got to be involved with.

    Another example, that is shown in the link Todd pulled up, this was the blue wool carpet that has some of the best pile reversal I have ever seen. This was in the Orlando Convention Center, they had just installed 300,000 sf of wool carpet. Before it was even put into use, it turned during this time and the results are in the photos I posted in that (or this?) link.
    With this one, we were commissioned to try to correct it. If you go back to that set of photos, we took an area and we were able to correct the lay of the nap to all running in one direction and the appearance was so much improved they wanted us to correct the entire 300,000 sf. I told them we needed to give it some time and see what happens. It looked good for a short period of time but within a short period, you could tell it was not holding and within 3 months, it had turned again. This has a strong basis for pointing to whatever force existed as being the culprit and not the manufacturing of the carpet, IMO.

    One more, this was in a hotel on I-4 interstate in Orlando. It had 5 levels of flooring. The same carpet was installed throughout the hotel lobby and hallways. It had one portion of the halls that were in an open atmosphere and you could look down on the lobby. It had another portion of the hotel that was in enclosed hallways. The open hallways were fine, no problem at all. The enclosed hallways, running in one direction, all 5 floors had a mirror reproduction of the pattern of pile reversal on them all going in the same direction. Each floor that had this pattern, also had a 90 degree turn with that hallway that did not have any pile reversal on them (I hope that is understandable?) This, to me, again shows a force of some sort in very distinct areas and none in the other areas. This really takes away from the idea of some type of manufacturing related issue.

    One more. The convention Center in Knoxville TN. They had installed new carpet and it was a major issue of pile reversal in a very short period of time. They had not even opened it yet and they hired me to go to court to sue for correction/replacement and so on. When I got there I had to spend some time with them to explain what was going on and that they would never win the case and why. We did not go to court and they accepted what I told and showed them.

    I can relate many more but I think you get the idea from these. While it is quite prevalent, there is not rhyme or reason to be able to point to the manufacturing of it. These patterns occur in ways that do not point to anything in manufacturing, at least what we understand. The patterns will repeat with different carpet on them. It occurs on all styles and construction of the goods, from woven, to tufted and even unitary backed good and on and on.............

    Logic tells me these points based on what is there. This is something that is proven and shown over and over. There appears to be some type of force that will affect the carpet in these areas.

    I think it is possilbe that it is related to a vortex from the earth. I cannot prove it but these vortex powers are well known and documented all over the earth and in the oceans. They appear in areas of forest and trees that all look the same until you hit an area with a vortex and the trees will be reversed and twisted differently, as if they are like spaghetti. I have seen this a lot, it appears to be random but it occurs all over the place. Who knows? I do not know but it is my thought based on seeing this in not only carpet but also seeing it in nature.

    Sorry to be so long winded with this but it is the only way I know how to explain this and the reasons why I am not convinced nor do I lean toward the manufacturing of the carpet. There simply is nothing pointing to that, the few facts we have all point to some, as yet, undefined force that twists or distorts the carpet pile.

    Just my thoughts on my experience with this and I have had a fair amount of experience with this. Still, no one seems to have the answer, maybe someday? It is a very complex issue at this point since we cannot define where the source comes from.

    SAA
     
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  19. 1ST CHOICE CLEANING

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    I find it hard to believe that with as long as carpet has been around and with all the brilliant people in our industry we still don't know what causes this.
     
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  20. SAA

    SAA Well-Known Member

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    That is a logical thought and it would seem reasonable. Maybe no one wants to find out or maybe no one wants to look too hard?
    I have dealt with this for a long time and it is just something that no one has been able to prove what it may be.
    Thee are many things that occur in life that we know it occurs but we do not always know why or how. This just appears to be one more on the list, I guess.
    Saa
     

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