True Chem Testing-Side by Side - Challenge

rob allen

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Many have debated that one chem works better than another. Before I get into that I want to tell you a story. I used to own a chain of vacuum cleaners stores before Walmart killed the market. Back then Eureka vacuum sold a unit to Sears. Sears changed the cover & sticker. Now clients came in when their Sears wore out I sold them the same Eureka. Almost all of them said the Sears cleaned better. But I knew better. Same amps,same fan,small motor yes same everything except the cover and sticker. But they insisted no matter what I told them. Then Consumer Guide comes out and rated them evenly. Who would have guessed that? :cool:

So my point is Side by Side testing is the only true way to test things and esp chemicals. Conclusions are usually based on "perceptions" and not reality. Yes there are some differences between competing products. Heat,concentration,uniquness and raw materials. However a larger impact is varying geographical soils,hardness of water,pre scrub tool,rotary,wand,fiber materials,dissimilar soils,carpet construction,equipment used and fluorochemical levels to name a few affect results.

So basically a formulator chooses his solvents,surfactants and builders to create his formulation. Over time he tweaks it and improves it. Very seldom does he go backwards if ever. However cleaners perception of the product changes and one or two times that it didn't seem to meet his expectations he throws it under the bus. Not fair. Tweaks are for the better not the worse. How do we know?

Side by side testing. The proof is in the pudding. The amount of difference cannot be shown in a few cleanings or a few cleaning situations. You must do at least 3-5 Side by Side comparisons in different cleaning situations over time. Yes one product may work better in one situation and the other better in another. However the overall Side by Side results in a best of 3-5 situations will determine the winner. You can't just set up at one house,one business or one carpet cleaning convention and determine a winner. That would be junk science just the CRI idiot testing. They take fake soil in fake conditions on new carpet with no pets,no people,no cooking,no oils and no traffic. Then some clown in a lab coat who knows squat about cleaning carpets runs the equipment over this fake situation as many times as the manufacturer says. The result? They rate a stupid rug doc over a beast truck mount. What a farce! :mad:

Sadly though,cleaners,the IICRC and others buy into it. Cleaner please (except TMF cleaners of course :) ),don't be so naive. Let me give you another example. Once a cleaner took a light duty pre spray like "Preload2". It would not clean heavy soiled carpets unless it was boosted with a product like Tilemaster. But on one occasion a guy had a restaurant where the previous cleaner left a ton of soapy residue. Well the light duty pre spray re-activated the previous product and the guy rinsed the carpet well. The carpet turned out like new. Now he thought it was the best thing since sliced bread but in reality it was not a heavy duty cleaner. His perception was altered but the reality different.

Another thing. Choice of application equipment,heat and dilution have an effect also. How so? Some use inline sprayers with varying dilution tips,or electric sprayers,or hand pump sprayers. All use varying size spray nozzles too. This has to be taken into account. Heat also plays a role. Some chems need more heat and some less to activate. Lastly many don't know this but over shaking a chemical mix can cause it to fall out of dilution and actually separate. Like a rug centrifuge separates water from a rug. So yes do shake but don't get stupid with it.

Lastly lets talk about geography. Every region has different or varying types of soils. What works in one area may not work in another area. Florida has sandy soils and Georgia has red clay soils. Sometimes even the best products have to be boosted a little to make up for this esp when you deal with garbage like poly's and oleo's. This doesn't even factor in cultural differences like cooking oils,body oils or as some do putting baby oil on the feet to name a few. See why it is so hard to find the perfect pre spray?

So what have we learned? Cleaners want a "nuke" kill it all pre spray. So we have tweaked our products several times and made them stronger,not weaker. This can be proven. We did Side by Side tests. How confident are we? Yes we moved the dilution upwards to accommodate for the nastiest situations. Perhaps we should mention that dilution can be cut in half for light to moderate soils. As mentioned in a another thread where a few complained that they thought a product of ours underperformed compared to our last formulation. We politely disagree and are willing to put it to the test. How?

We are sending 10 members whom ya'll have chosen to test products Side by Side. And we will reserve the next 2 posts to have 5 of each in each post. We will start with Tilemaster and Preload5. We will send each person a "test sheet" to record the results on. So let's watch as we develop a true testing. How so? Side by Side testing with a proper twist,over several different cleaning situations. ;)

Let's get 'er done! :)


Rob


The chosen 10 are*;

Jaime Fabara (Locko)
David Reed
Todd the Cleaner (and Jeff Kondra since they work together)
Rob Mueller
Michael
(Certified Cleaner)
Matt Wood
Jimmy Hitt
Tony Burke
Kevin M (Colorado Cleaner)
Katycarpetcleaning


Did I miss anyone? May take two more.

Rich Troia


*Submit all your shipping info to @Edwin Camacho via PM.


**Please request and use this testing form below. Email me or Ed and we will send you a copy to print out. It's simple and precise;
 
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rob allen

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Reviews will be here as they are received. This post reserved for Tilemaster. Here is a copy of the test form;


Tile Cleaning Product Comparison Form


Surface ______ Ceramic tile _______ Stone _____________________ Other (Describe) Grout Color _____________________

_____ Floor _______ Countertop _______ Shower _________________ Other (Describe) Photos ______Floor 1 ______Floor 2 ______Floor 3

Commercial / Residential (Circle one) Soil Level ______________________________ Type of Soil ________________________________

Type of Sprayer _____________________ Prespray Temperature __________________________________ Dwell Time _____________________

Method of Agitation _________________________________ TM / Portable (Circle one) PSI _____________ Rinse Tool Used _____________


Test Floor #1

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Test Floor #2

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Test Floor #3

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Read more: http://www.truckmountforums.com/threads/true-chem-testing-side-by-side-challenge.58076/#ixzz389gVTstS
Follow us: @truckmountforum on Twitter | truckmountforum on Facebook
 
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rob allen

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Reviews will be here as they are received. This post reserved for Preload5. Here is a copy of the test form;

Carpet Cleaning Product Comparison Form


Fiber ______ Nylon _______ Olefin ________ Wool ______________________ Polyester

_____ Commercial level Loop _______ Saxony/ Plush _______ Berber _______________________ Other (Describe)

Photos ______Carpet 1 ______Carpet 2 ______Carpet 3 Soil Level ________________________ Type of Soil ______________________________

Type of Sprayer __________________ Prespray Temp ___________________ Dwell Time __________________ Rinse Temp _____________________

Method of Agitation _________________________________ TM / Portable (Circle one) PSI _____________ Wand / Rotary / Other (Circle one)


Test Carpet #1

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Test Carpet #2

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Test Carpet #3

Product A Results ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Product B Results _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 

Gasoline

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Rob, how are you testing?

I would like to see a comparison of each with agitation and without.

Some have complained that they need to scrub now when in the past they did not. Speaking of TM now.

Not sure about Preload 5. I like it. But I also liked Preload 2. A lot.
 
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Decker

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Many have debated that one chem works better than another. Before i get into that I want to tell you a story. I used to own a chain of vacuum cleaners stores before Walmart killed the market. Back then Eureka vacuum sold a unit to Sears. Sears changed the sticker. Now clients came in when their Sears wore out I sold them the same Eureka. Almost all of them said the Sears cleaned better. But I knew better. Same amps,same fan,small motor same everything except the cover and sticker. But they insisted no matter what I told them. Then Consumer Guide comes out and rated them evenly. Who would have guessed that?

So my point is Side by Side testing is the only true way to test things and esp chemicals. Conclusions are usually based on "perceptions" and not reality. Yes there are some differences between competing products. Heat,concentration,uniquness and raw materials. However a larger impact is varying geographical soils,fiber materials,dissimilar soils,carpet construction,equipment used and fluorochemical levels to name a few.

So basically a formulator chooses his solvents,surfactants and builders to create his formulation. Over time he tweaks it and improves it. Very seldom does he go backwards if ever. However cleaners perception of the product changes and one or two times that it didn't seem to meet his expectations he throws it under the bus. Not fair. Tweaks are for the better not the worse. How do we know?

Side by side testing. The proof is in the pudding. The amount of difference cannot be shown in a few cleanings or a few cleaning situations. You must do at least 3 Side by Side comparisons in different cleaning situations over time. Yes one product may work better in one situation and the other better in another. However the overall Side by Side results in a best of 3-5 situations will determine the winner. You can't just set up at one house,one business or one carpet cleaning convention and determine a winner. That would be junk science just the CRI idiot testing. They take fake soil in fake conditions on new carpet with no pets,no people,no cooking,no oils and no traffic. Then they run the equipment over this fake situation as many times as the manufacturer says and rate a stupid rug doc over a beast truck mount. What a farce! :mad:

Sadly cleaners,the IICRC and others buy into it. Cleaner please,don't be so naive. Let me give you another example. Once a cleaner took a light duty pre spray like "Preload2". It would not clean heavy soiled carpets unless it was boosted with a product like Tilemaster. But on one occasion a guy had a restaurant where the previous cleaner left a ton of soapy residue. Well the light duty pre spray re-activated the previous product and the guy rinsed the carpet well. The carpet turned out like new. Now he thought it was the best thing since sliced bread but in reality it was not a heavy duty cleaner. His perception was altered but the reality different.

Another thing. Choice of application equipment,heat and dilution have an effect also. How so? Some use inline sprayers with varying dilution tips,or electric sprayers,or hand pump sprayers. All use varying size spray nozzles too. This has to be taken into account. Heat also plays a role. Some chems need more heat and some less to activate. Lastly many don't know this but over shaking a chemical mix can cause it to fall out of dilution and actually separate. Like a rug centrifuge separates water from a rug. So yes do shake but don't get stupid with it.

Lastly lets talk about geography. Every region has different or varying types of soils. What works in one area may not work in another area. Florida has sandy soils and Georgia has red clay soils. Sometimes even the best products have to be boosted a little to make up for this esp when you deal with garbage like poly's and oleo's. This doesn't even factor in cultural differences like cooking oils,body oils or as some do putting baby oil on the feet to name a few. See why it is so hard to find the perfect pre spray?

So what have we learned? Cleaners want a "nuke" kill it all pre spray. So we have tweaked our products several times and made them stronger,not weaker. This can be proven. We did Side by Side tests. How confident are we? Yes we moved the dilution upwards to accommodate for the nastiest situations. Perhaps we should mention that dilution can be cut in half for light to moderate soils. As mentioned in a mother thread where a few complained that they thought a product of ours underperformed compared to our last formulation. We politely disagree and are willing to put it to the test. How?

We are sending 10 members whom ya'll have chosen to test products Side by Side. And we will reserve the next 2 posts to have 5 of each in each post. We will start with Tilemaster and Preload5. We will send each person a "test sheet" to record the results on. So let's watch as we develop a true testing. How so? Side by Side testing with a proper twist,over several different cleaning situations. ;)

Let's get 'er done! :)


Rob


The chosen 10 are;

Jaime Fabara (Locko)
David Reed
Todd the Cleaner (and Jeff Kondra since they work together)
Rob Mueller
Michael
(Certified Cleaner)
Matt Wood
Jimmy Hitt
Tony Burke
Kevin M (Colorado Cleaner)
Katycarpetcleaning


Did I miss anyone? May take two more.


.
Great points. You could also mention local water hardness and use of softeners and other water treatments.

Curious to see how this develops.
 

tonyb14

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I will gladly be a tester for preload 5. I have used all of the preloads, liquid, preload 2, and now preload 5...I really liked the original preload 5 sold by tmf...but sadly I have no more of that.
As for tilemaster, I don't do very much tile in my area...it would take a long time for me to submit results.
 
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FloorSolutions

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most of those people are from the south and west, correct? wheres the representation from NE?

a good idea would have been to find from the west coast, , SW, NW, SE, NE. try to get some from each region of the country, since soils vary a lot depending on your region, as you said already.
 

tonyb14

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I will gladly be a tester for preload 5. I have used all of the preloads, liquid, preload 2, and now preload 5...I really liked the original preload 5 sold by tmf...but sadly I have no more of that.
As for tilemaster, I don't do very much tile in my area...it would take a long time for me to submit results.
I'm in pa

most of those people are from the south and west, correct? wheres the representation from NE?

a good idea would have been to find from the west coast, , SW, NW, SE, NE. try to get some from each region of the country, since soils vary a lot depending on your region, as you said already.
I was trying to quote you and quoted myself instead :)
I'm in pa.
 
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rob allen

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most of those people are from the south and west, correct? wheres the representation from NE?

a good idea would have been to find from the west coast, , SW, NW, SE, NE. try to get some from each region of the country, since soils vary a lot depending on your region, as you said already.
Your added Rich.
 

dirtsucker

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Maybe I missed it in this thread. But shouldn't this test have the preload tested against other manufacture prespray?


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rob allen

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Maybe I missed it in this thread. But shouldn't this test have the preload tested against other manufacture prespray?


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Yes. This is just a starting point.
 
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Decker

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Maybe I missed it in this thread. But shouldn't this test have the preload tested against other manufacture prespay?


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I actually leaped to that conclusion, that products would test effectiveness in different areas, but also against other products. That's just how my analytic mind works though.
 
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Jose Holguin

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Crazy how cleaners can't trust their own heads.


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Deron06

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You nerds can test tube the pre-sprays but when TMF decides to test birth control medicines and equipment, I'm in. I'm warning you though; I have a sperm count that would burst an elephant's balls. Hell, I don't even think I mounted my wife the last time I knocked her up. Yes, Johnny's my kid, you bast@rds.

 
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Jose Holguin

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You nerds can test tube the pre-sprays but when TMF decides to test birth control medicines and equipment, I'm in. I'm warning you though; I have a sperm count that would burst an elephant's balls. Hell, I don't even think I mounted my wife the last time I knocked her up. Yes, Johnny's my kid, you bast@rds.

I bet you got her pregnant over the phone.


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