Should RAM AIR INT. be in the NADCA

[pacleaner]

I believe Ram air can sell what they like. But The NADCA is helping push their highly questionable methods and equipment. I am submitting the following complaint to the NADCA and I will post their response, if any. What are your feelings on the subject?










What follows is an ethics complaint against the NADCA for its apparent endorsement

Of the RAM AIR International air duct cleaning system.




Ram Air Int. is currently in good standing as an associate member of the NADCA., for the purpose of selling its “complete system” to members of the NADCA.


Ram Air Int. also displays the NADCA logo on its web site, indicating acceptance by the NADCA as an acceptable method for cleaning air ducts.


The aforementioned members have been certified and tested for knowledge of the NADCA exacting standards concerning the correct methods and necessity for cleaning ALL components of an HVAC system.


Unlike a company such as Nicro, which does not endorse any particular methods, and sells all manor of cleaning equipment, that can be combined to cover all aspects of a complete service, Ram Air Int. is clearly sold by its

Creator, David Heart, as a revolutionary stand alone and complete air duct cleaning system.


The Ram Air Int. system, as described by the owner, does not appear to involve or require access to the main trunk lines. With the use of this complete system there are no holes created for visual inspection or insertion of agitation, vacuum or air powered tools, before or after a cleaning. At the conclusion of a cleaning with the Ram Air Int. system, neither the technician nor the customer is able to verify that any contaminates at all have been removed. It is explained by Ram Air Int. that an air line, which is snaked through a branch line, will enter the trunk line and will apparently

“know” to make a ninety degree turn and in a direction ,chosen by the hose its self, and that the air supply to this line which is specified by Ram Air to be between 5 (five) and 2 ( two) c.f.m. and for a period of not more than ten to fifteen seconds per branch cleaned , will be of such sufficient measure that after the branch lines have all been run through for ten seconds the massive trunk lines will have in fact been “over cleaned”. This is a direct quote off of the Ram Air Int. web site. Further more, the returns, unlike the supplies, are to be cleaned in the direction of the air handler but yet while continuing to use the reverse air ball, which is the only air ball provided with the Ram Air Int. complete system. No light box cover is used during this operation which can only mean that a great deal of contaminates can be expected to be drawn out of the vent and in to the living space. The air handler is to remain fan on and there will be a struggle between how much loosened debris is blow in to the home and how much is sucked down to the further contaminate the trunk lines and the air handler its self. Of course the trunk lines will be un touched as an air line will only bump in to opposite wall of a trunk line and simply stop there. Any debris which may get disturbed will blow around in the large space and, as the fan is in on position the dust will likely blow up through a supply line and in to the home.


As a method to clean a supply line, the Ram Air concept of a cover combined with reverse air and a vacuum at the top is, I suppose, sound. As a complete and stand alone system which purports to clean the large and un seen trunk lines with a tiny air ball and using the recommended Dewalt D55146 4.5 gallon home hobby style nail gun compressor is at best laughable and at worst, perhaps, criminally negligent.


The Ram Air Int. complete cleaning system, as its offered, and in my opinion, violates nearly every component of the standards which the NADCA is celebrated for, and charges its members real fees for to obtain certification.


I challenge the NADCA to investigate its self for a “violation of trust” and to either disassociate with Ram Air Int. and its fantastic claims or to force the use of a disclaimer upon them in all advertising, including in their own web site, for as long as they intend to remain an associate member of the NADCA, that the Ram Air Int. system is one part of a complete air duct cleaning and must be combined with a full cleaning of trunk lines, including adequate cut outs for visual conformation to both the customer and technician, and using some form of negative air and a commercial air compressor, as indicated by the standard set forth by the NADCA.


If the NADCA investigation finds no violation of trust to its members, then I would ask for a comprehensive explanation of all reasoning and that it includes disclosure of the annual fees paid to the NADCA by Ram Air Int. for access to the member data base as well as revenue generated by shares of sales made to its members.


Sincerely, Glen Isaacson

Owner, Ductboss

 

[EVDOG]

My opinion on the subject is....... why the hell do you care? Why spend your time bashing your competition? Build your business upon the quality of work YOU do, not by what your competion is doing. I always found that PETTY when companies do that. When a potential customer calls, I land the job by informing them how good we are, not by how "bad" my completion is. Take that letter and throw it in the trash and spend your time improving your business. Quit worrying about what your competion is using. All you do is sound butt hurt.

 

[tres]

Little different in this situation. Basically the ram air is a complete scam system. It kind of cleans about 20% of the hvac system at best.

Hvac clean is the biggest scam potential in the cleaning industry

There is basically no verification system and no way to visually clear a job

Carpet cleaning - customer can see its clean or not

Mold- IAQ tester says it's clean

Hvac- I went in your attic and cleaned the coils, I took off all your vent covers and put a tube in there for 10 seconds and "fogged" some special juice now it's all clean

The companies that do a really good job charge a lot and very few people will pay for it cause there are so many hacks and people just don't understand what's involved in the real process

 

[pacleaner]

I don't care at all what David heart does. The letter is about the NADCA wishing to be the moral arbiter for all duct cleaners and charging plenty of cash to certify members, but then allowing this joke of a system to display their coveted logo and to help them sell their system in exchange for cash.
Mr. heart owes nothing. He is in a free market. The NADCA, however, claims to stand for something. Standing for something usually requires sacrifice and I am interested if they will place their money where their mouth is.

As for why care? Same reason we all come to a chat room and read anything or watch the news at night. Just because it's interesting. You are free to ignore my post and let those who are curious comment.

 

[EVDOG]

I was curious and I did comment. You asked what our feelings were on the subject, so I replied. You didn't ask for replies from only those who agree with you. Maybe that's what you should have stated. If you can't take criticism then maybe you shouldn't post here. Jmho.

 

[pacleaner]

here we go. Another chat room guy that can only be upset with another chatter. I see you have "the finger" as your icon and I guess that explains something about your attitude towards others.

Of course I was looking for a reply concerning my topic which would be if you think the NADCA has any obligation to its members.

As for not being able to take criticism, actually I didn't say anything disparaging about you personally or about your post. I simply reiterated the point of my topic. You are not under attack and could take your own advice as you couldn't stand for what you mistook as criticism of your own answer.

You may have the last post on this if you like or not. Didn't mean to make an enemy, just wanted to stay on topic.

 

[EVDOG]

Ok GI Jane. I know I'm not "under attack" and no you did not make an "enemy". I'm not a child, I could care less about you. That being said, I'm done here. Now excuse me while I go write a 20 page memorandum to the Asthma & Allergy Foundation of America for granting Stanley Steemer "the first carpet cleaning company to earn the asthma & allergy friendly certification." What a sham! That pisses me off!

 

[M4sT3R T3CH]

Just my 2 cents here. I have used Ram Air and it does a decent job. I made a few modifications to the system. I have a camera i can insert into the duct work and to be honest i am impressed with the system. Saying it only removes 20% of the debris is laughable and seeingbthe look on a clients face as you remove all the stuff is priceless. Look here is the reality. Air duct cleaning just like carpet cleaning isnt rocket science. There will always be good and bad cleaners. Your argument is like saying anybody who uses a portable is scamming because they dont clean as good. Well there are some guys on here that would probably disagree. I think your real problem is that you have invested money into certification and now you feel your way is the only way. Same thing with IICRC. They endorse different methods of cleaning but a true professinal has to be able to understand its a guideline.

As someone else posted sell your self and the work you do.

I know the limitations of the Ram Air system and i refer the jobs that it cannot handle to someone else.

Dont knock the system if you havent used it. Makes you look and sound ignorant.

 

[EVDOG]

Just my 2 cents here. I have used Ram Air and it does a decent job. I made a few modifications to the system. I have a camera i can insert into the duct work and to be honest i am impressed with the system. Saying it only removes 20% of the debris is laughable and seeingbthe look on a clients face as you remove all the stuff is priceless. Look here is the reality. Air duct cleaning just like carpet cleaning isnt rocket science. There will always be good and bad cleaners. Your argument is like saying anybody who uses a portable is scamming because they dont clean as good. Well there are some guys on here that would probably disagree. I think your real problem is that you have invested money into certification and now you feel your way is the only way. Same thing with IICRC. They endorse different methods of cleaning but a true professinal has to be able to understand its a guideline.

As someone else posted sell your self and the work you do.

I know the limitations of the Ram Air system and i refer the jobs that it cannot handle to someone else.

Dont knock the system if you havent used it. Makes you look and sound ignorant.

I too use the ram air system and am quite impressed. Like you, I am aware of its limitations though. Would be interested in hearing what camera system you're using? Was thinking about doing this as well.

 

[M4sT3R T3CH]

I use an inspection camera i picked up from harbor. Great tool for the money. Back in the day i used a mirror and flashlight. O think the camera ran 350

 

[EVDOG]

I use an inspection camera i picked up from harbor. Great tool for the money. Back in the day i used a mirror and flashlight. O think the camera ran 350

Awesome. There's a Harbor Freight right up the street from me lol. Thank you.

 

[Cat 3]

Little different in this situation. Basically the ram air is a complete scam system. It kind of cleans about 20% of the hvac system at best.

Hvac clean is the biggest scam potential in the cleaning industry

There is basically no verification system and no way to visually clear a job

Carpet cleaning - customer can see its clean or not

Mold- IAQ tester says it's clean

Hvac- I went in your attic and cleaned the coils, I took off all your vent covers and put a tube in there for 10 seconds and "fogged" some special juice now it's all clean

The companies that do a really good job charge a lot and very few people will pay for it cause there are so many hacks and people just don't understand what's involved in the real process

Tres, although I agree with the above posts I want to say that I run 3 caddy vac trucks full time and 3 carpet trucks full time. I used to be a low priced guy but over about 5 years of constant education on incoming calls. We are now the second highest priced in our area and are always booked out 2 weeks. The point I guess is, that will education on every call we as duct cleaners can steer the clients. I have found when you ask the client if they want a low price or a good job they almost always say "good job" that opens the door to explaining the difference and they usually book it.

 

[Cat 3]

Just my 2 cents here. I have used Ram Air and it does a decent job. I made a few modifications to the system. I have a camera i can insert into the duct work and to be honest i am impressed with the system. Saying it only removes 20% of the debris is laughable and seeingbthe look on a clients face as you remove all the stuff is priceless. Look here is the reality. Air duct cleaning just like carpet cleaning isnt rocket science. There will always be good and bad cleaners. Your argument is like saying anybody who uses a portable is scamming because they dont clean as good. Well there are some guys on here that would probably disagree. I think your real problem is that you have invested money into certification and now you feel your way is the only way. Same thing with IICRC. They endorse different methods of cleaning but a true professinal has to be able to understand its a guideline.

As someone else posted sell your self and the work you do.

I know the limitations of the Ram Air system and i refer the jobs that it cannot handle to someone else.

Dont knock the system if you havent used it. Makes you look and sound ignorant.

You are correct that the Ram Air does pretty good if you look at the first 15' of every supply line. In my opinion one has to clean the main trunk line otherwise when the furnace continues to run you will just contaminate your supplies you just cleaned.

I can say I own both Ram air and negative air equipment and there is a difference. I do admit when I started out I could only afford the Ram Air and after a year I knew I had to upgrade in order to get referrals from heating companies as they were asking me the hard questions about how I clean.

 

[Cat 3]

I don't care at all what David heart does. The letter is about the NADCA wishing to be the moral arbiter for all duct cleaners and charging plenty of cash to certify members, but then allowing this joke of a system to display their coveted logo and to help them sell their system in exchange for cash.
Mr. heart owes nothing. He is in a free market. The NADCA, however, claims to stand for something. Standing for something usually requires sacrifice and I am interested if they will place their money where their mouth is.

As for why care? Same reason we all come to a chat room and read anything or watch the news at night. Just because it's interesting. You are free to ignore my post and let those who are curious comment.

We clean to NADCA standards but I refuse to be a member and pay their very high prices. I don't see the benefit. In 13 years we have never been asked if we are NADCA certified.

 

[pacleaner]

I am not part of the NADCA. and have never given them money.
Your customers don't understand that neither of you ever clean or even look at their mains if you are using only the ram air system as it is designed and sold.
I am not knocking ram air, I am knocking NADCA for endorsing them just to get cash.
I actually do a FULL reverse cleaning. This means I also do the returns in reverse with a light box instead of blowing the dirt back down the wall and I hook a truck mount up to the mains and thoroughly clean them and the air handler.
This would not be like knocking a portable, they are very nice, and that is not a system just one peice of equipment.
I do sell my service on its own Merritt, I am not selling here.
The harbor freight camera has a two foot cable so you can not inspect hvac duct work with it.
You can make your own 30 foot scope for under $30. Purchase any 30 foot
borescope/endoscope for about $16., purchase an OTG adapter about $6. you will need one even with a phone that supports otg and download camera fi to your phone. I electrician tape it to a plastic 30 foot tube they have have on roles at the home stores, choose one rigid enough,. You will be able to see as far as you can push it in. I use this on dryer vents as well.

Perhaps there is someone here who is not a ram air user that would like to chime in

 

[pacleaner]

Cat3 I love that approach. I also tell them right away that I am not a coupon company and I know they can find a lower price than me. I end up around four to six hundred for most jobs. I have charged as high as 11,00 for a couple of very large homes in the 8000 square foot range. I will never get every job but I always know I am getting my price when I do so I am motivated to spend four or six hours and do the best work i can offer. I will never get that call that the customer had an hvac guy out and he said the ducts were not cleaned well and they want their money back.

 

[M4sT3R T3CH]

I have made some modifications to the ram air system. And as far as the mains go its not that hard to put in holes and patch em up. Duct cleaning isnt that difficult. But i would agree a negative air system is better. But then again it depends on the tech.