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Please help!!!

Ken Raddon

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Well I don't normally respond to a thread with this much info already put in writing but I can't resist here.

I cleaned carpet full time for 18 years and part of my window cleaning business (I actually added carpet cleaning to window cleaning then phased out the windows a few years later) for a grand total of enough years to know what I am talking about and yes, I took all the training classes available back when...

I said all that to say this... I never tested a carpet or a piece of furniture after the second or third time. So If you think fiber I.D. is going to help you then knock yourself out. I think you will learn what many of us on here learned along time ago... "Learn how to clean it and you won't have to identify it."

I won a stain getting out contest ten or so years ago at a suppliers customer appreciation day. There were many identified stains and a couple unidentified stains. I go everything out with Red Out (I don't remember whos it was) goof off and fels naptha. I havn't had anything but those on the truck since then.

BTW we don't get near the coffee staining here in Utah some others get around the country but if we did I would have some of that fancy stain out stuff.
 
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I had a big coffee stain on Monday. Told the customer it might come back. It did, and looked just like that stain you have. It came back much smaller and lighter, than the original stain. Stain 1 is a great product and I'm never without it. It has peroxide in it, so be careful using it.
So stain 1 works but you (we) may still need to drive back to the customer to spray and mist on after?? Thats not good..

Am I missing something? Like maybe Mondays coffee stain was an uncommon occurrence and you were already prepping the customer so that is good.
 

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OK, so reading your post again it seems the fix could be as simple as spraying some encapsulating cleaner on a white towel and wiping the stain.

Am I understanding this correctly?

And to go further: If the urine is more severe then flushing it before this step might be necessary?
And since we are TMF, TMF Black Label is an 'encapsulating cleaner' correct?
 

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You definitely need to learn fiber ID. That is a synthetic fiber, but which one. They do not all clean the same. They each have different potential issues. Doing a fiber ID, informing customer of the fiber and how you will clean specifically for that fiber is a great marketing tool. Few other cleaners will do that.

There is wicking from urine. Always check with the urine light. It can lead to many extra sales of urine and odor treatments. Now you will probably need to treat the urine for free.

Two potential solutions for the stains. This assumes there is no noticeable urine odor.
1) Wipe with clean white trowel and encapsulation cleaner such as Encapuclean Green DS or Encapuclean O2 or Spot Stop.
2) A mist of an oxidizer, I love StainZone which you can get at Interlink Supply, but Stain 1 is also OK.

You can also do both of the above steps.

If you clean it the same way you did before, you will get similar results. Wicking. There are only 2 ways to prevent wicking. One is to vacuum and clean so thoroughly and completely that there is no soil even down at the base of the carpet or pad. If there is nothing there, nothing can wick back. This is an ideal approach but not always practical. The other method is to use an encapsulation cleaner that stops or discourages wick back.

GEt to an IICRC carpet cleaning class at your first opportunity. There will be training on spotters and an hour or so of hands-on spot and stain removal on the most difficult and stubborn spots and stains supervised by the instructor.
Regarding #2.) above:

Stain 1 according to the bottle is very harmful. But, if I am understanding you correctly we can just mist on and walk away and there won't be a risk of doing harm to occupants or pets after not dries?
 

Jim Davisson

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My .02
#1 go to for what you had happen is citric acid a towel and rake and then possibly stain 1 as well as an adjunct, but I'm an old school guy and without question that's a synthetic broadloom.

Let's discuss how it happened first. Was there an indicator stain prior to cleaning? The main reason I see brown out is not because of super anal low moisture cleaning, but the lack there of it. The reason it showed up was either very incomplete removal, high pH rinse chemistry and incomplete removal or capillary action from overwetting even with the right chemistry. None of this is technically your fault, but can be a good learning experience for going forward. I tell my customers to call if they find any problem, I don't take it personal, because I didn't put the stains there, but I'm going to work my best to remove them and don't live with them because you don't want to hurt my feelings. You will learn to recognize possible problem areas and preemptively treat them. I keep 5 lbs of citric acid on the rig and use it in various dilution ratios for many things including area rugs all the time. Lowering pH after rinsing a coffee or plant stain ( don't get many plant stains these days) is a good cleaning practice and is a difference maker. Many times I will tell them to vacuum the brakes of the area after it's dried and call me immediately if they still see it... Phone doesn't ring much and I always inquire about it in my post cleaning follow up calls or texts.
 
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Bob Savage

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Probably a soap residue from customer trying first to remove the stain - which it was gone while you cleaned it out, but with a soap residue from their spotting it will re-appear with cleaning after several hours.

Neutralize the soap and your done.
 

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My .02


Let's discuss how it happened first. Was there an indicator stain prior to cleaning?
My before pictures don't show much but my memory says there was some brown stains (browning) in a couple of places but if my recall is correct less sever then the After pics I received today.



The main reason I see brown out is not because of super anal low moisture cleaning, but the lack there of it. The reason it showed up was either very incomplete removal, high pH rinse chemistry and incomplete removal or capillary action from overwetting even with the right chemistry.
Perhaps incomplete removal Because I certainly didn't flush with a water claw, and I didn't really give it much extra attention than normal because it was cleaning up well.

As for high pH rinse - that is anything over 10, correct? If so, I do believe I was 10 or under.

Looking back I guess there is a chance e I over wet it if maybe that area 'took more' wet passes to clean. I just don't really recall now this job was Monday.

You will learn to recognize possible problem areas and preemptively treat them.

I hope so. There is 2 things I understand I could have done differently based on the insights from this thread:

1.) use my urine light to VERIFY there is no urine (even when opinion of others is there is none),
and/or

2.) since there was some degree or type of an indicator stain present before cleaning then maybe put fans on it after cleaning and look for wicking and if so mist an oxidizer like stain 1. (This seems like it might not always be reasonable in that the carpets might not be dry enough to tell before leaving??)

Lowering pH after rinsing a coffee or plant stain ( don't get many plant stains these days) is a good cleaning practice and is a difference maker. Many times I will tell them to vacuum the brakes of the area after it's dried and call me immediately if they still see it... Phone doesn't ring much and I always inquire about it in my post cleaning follow up calls or texts.


Trying to understand all this to prevent call backs which obviously are not efficient and bad business.
 

Jim Davisson

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If you are unsure ever, rinse on the acid side. Flex ice formulated by Tom Forsythe who is a member here, knocked it out of the freaking park with this one. We used to have a similar chem locally from Monarch called Shine, cleaned on the acid side (when many synthetic goods we cleaned had natural primary backings (jute or rested on horse hair/felt pad) and prevented these types of things from rearing their ugly head. Typically nylons are slightly pH sensitive and in my experience cool colors look best cleaned on the acid side and warm colors cleaned on the alkaline side, take that for what it's worth but it's my experience. Soil type and preferred pH for cleaning on top of the goods in question is best left to the job at hand. You can typically determine this from the structure outside the building and the foot traffic it receives. Then internally determine the kinds of soils produced within and formed out and when you deduce all of that as you measure up the square footage to determine your time on the job and the end results assign a square footage price from the entry points to the furthest area (those prices should not be the same) and then submit your price to the customer keeping all internal decisions to yourself. Your goal IMO is to clean thoroughly and differently as you move through the structure.
 
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If you are unsure ever, rinse on the acid side. Flex ice formulated by Tom Forsythe who is a member here, knocked it out of the freaking park with this one. We used to have a similar chem locally from Monarch called Shine, cleaned on the acid side (when many synthetic goods we cleaned had natural primary backings (jute or rested on horse hair/felt pad) and prevented these types of things from rearing their ugly head. Typically nylons are slightly pH sensitive and in my experience cool colors look best cleaned on the acid side and warm colors cleaned on the alkaline side, take that for what it's worth but it's my experience. Soil type and preferred pH for cleaning on top of the goods in question is best left to the job at hand. You can typically determine this from the structure outside the building and the foot traffic it receives. Then internally determine the kinds of soils produced within and formed out and when you deduce all of that as you measure up the square footage to determine your time on the job and the end results assign a square footage price from the entry points to the furthest area (those prices should not be the same) and then submit your price to the customer keeping all internal decisions to yourself. Your goal IMO is to clean thoroughly and differently as you move through the structure.
Well its good to see for me that there is still a lot to learn.
 

Jim Davisson

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Well its good to see for me that there is still a lot to learn.
In 26 years of stroking a wand, I learn everyday. I sometimes relearn valuable lessons reiterating past lessons I learned to y'all. I become a better cleaner the more I share, as stupid as that sounds.
 

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In 26 years of stroking a wand, I learn everyday. I sometimes relearn valuable lessons reiterating past lessons I learned to y'all. I become a better cleaner the more I share, as stupid as that sounds.
Doesn't sound stupid at all. The teacher continues to learn through teaching others and their students can learn from the teacher until they start to teach students of theirs at which the students now teaching are learning from now teaching. Totally get that concept here.

..It must be getting late and Ive thought way too much about cleaning carpets today.

Thank you everyone for giving me a lot to think about and consider on this journey. :)
 

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stain 1 works. two weeks ago I had a coffee spill - an entire cup. I flushed it with water to get all the spotters the customer tried out. Then applied Stain 1 and covered with wax paper and put old magazines on top to keep the wax paper (vapor barrier) in place. A week I went back and stain was 99 percent gone. just flushed and applied more Stain 1 to get the rest. Ive been cleaning for over 30 years and even I was impressed, as was the customer.

But then again, that was coffee and I knew what I was working on. You have no clue as to what those stains are. good chance to get some experience.
 

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Stay here and you will never stop learning. I don't think the combined knowledge on TMF could ever be told or learned.

As usual Jim hit it spot on, don't take it personally. Ever! You didn't put the dirt there. It's one thing when the customer can tell you what the spots are and you know how to attack them, it's another when you go into an empty with no history. In either case you still need to play detective. Sometimes things are invisible to the eye but become apparent when wet or during extraction. Just take your time, observe and listen. You'll get the hang of it.
 

Jim Davisson

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Stay here and you will never stop learning. I don't think the combined knowledge on TMF could ever be told or learned.

As usual Jim hit it spot on, don't take it personally. Ever! You didn't put the dirt there. It's one thing when the customer can tell you what the spots are and you know how to attack them, it's another when you go into an empty with no history. In either case you still need to play detective. Sometimes things are invisible to the eye but become apparent when wet or during extraction. Just take your time, observe and listen. You'll get the hang of it.
You have summed up everything a cleaner has to keep in mind. Where are the stains in location to the room and wear pattern? What are they most likely to be? What is the easiest way to remove them? What do I use if preemptive cleaning has no affect? How much do I charge for removal post cleaning?

Answer: How much do I need to make to be a profitable company for years to come? Only you can answer that and every answer is different.

I have no expenses except upkeep and payroll, my prices are different from a new start up with payroll, marketing, paying on iron, etc ... I probably charge more because I don't NEED the work and use various modalities to provide income streams with less time spent, so I'm not a good example, but I will give you the best and advice I have ever received in business.... Hunt when your belly is full! Confidence is not something that you can put your finger on, but desperation is easily identified.
 

J20770

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You have summed up everything a cleaner has to keep in mind. Where are the stains in location to the room and wear pattern? What are they most likely to be? What is the easiest way to remove them? What do I use if preemptive cleaning has no affect? How much do I charge for removal post cleaning?

Answer: How much do I need to make to be a profitable company for years to come? Only you can answer that and every answer is different.

I have no expenses except upkeep and payroll, my prices are different from a new start up with payroll, marketing, paying on iron, etc ... I probably charge more because I don't NEED the work and use various modalities to provide income streams with less time spent, so I'm not a good example, but I will give you the best and advice I have ever received in business.... Hunt when your belly is full! Confidence is not something that you can put your finger on, but desperation is easily identified.
Sometimes it just needs a match and accelerant.

Some of the hardest lessons in life are learning to ask for help and when to ask for help. The other is knowing the difference between confidence and cockiness. Two completely different things but so many mistake one for the other.
 
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Luky

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Just after I mention my confidence is increasing I get these pictures from a job 2 days ago:
View attachment 85475View attachment 85476

So I am a little exposed here. I didn't do a fiber test. I was fairly confident this is a synthetic carpet and I, pretty sure I used some black label and I think it might of had some citrus solv in there. That was probably mistake 1 (assuming was synthetic)? I also didn't use my urine light because the contractor didn't think there was any pets there ever. Maybe mistake 2 because maybe this is urine wicking?

Anyway Im waiting for his reply after I offered to come down tomorrow and rework it. But, other than retreat and extract really well Im not sure what to do!?

Could this be a natural fiber and be the cellulosic browning because I didn't extract and dry it good enough? Is this permanent?

Please help!!
In the future, when you get ro a job side, most if time ( if you long enough in the business) you won't need even black light in order to
"diagnose" the issue you're about to encounter. Urine, or any other liquid may have smaller footprint on the carpet, the real culprit lays in the padding. Since liquid is encased under the carpet ather is no breathing room or air movement, liquid has tendency to expand. As you wet the carpet, not knowing what monsters live beneath the surface, you are not expecting any surprises. You'll find out soon that areas affected with urine or any other liquid have different characteristics ( sometimes little bent gives the signs, different sound coming from wand once you go over certain areas or slight changes in coloration of the carpet. In any case, your best chance is to have spot lifter or small water claw handy. Once you saturate suspicious areas with a urine treatment of your choice and help to push it deeper . Dwell time is recommended and more importantly good rinse( one or two) has to follow immediately. This is the time when spot lifter needs to be used to get all mixed liquids ( chemistry and urine) pn surface of the carpet. Use of industrial airmovers should follow immediately to achieve ideal results. Everyone has their ways how to treat these problems , I've described the way I used to take care of it.
 

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1) Prevention best-Set expectations
2) Always use UV light, period.
3)Pre-vacuum extra when using portable
4) Use TMF ULT acid rinse while newbie
5) Overlap clean & do lots dry strokes
7) Use air movers
8) Make sure A/C on accel drying
9) Groom to speed drying
10) Take TMF courses to become more rounded/confident/efficient and prevent/correct/ID issues - www.tmfacademy.com


Remedy:

 
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Mama Fen

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Regarding #2.) above:

Stain 1 according to the bottle is very harmful. But, if I am understanding you correctly we can just mist on and walk away and there won't be a risk of doing harm to occupants or pets after not dries?

Stain One is essentially a strong peroxide with some surfactant and other goodies built in. Peroxides, over time, break down to air and water, so if left in the carpet a smallish dose of Stain One will become essentially inert.

If you go crazy with it and use too much, the surfactant may cause resoiling issues, and we all know what strong peroxide does to skin, so use sparingly and you will avoid most problems. Like any other tool, judicious use is key. Misuse is cause for concern.
 

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Regarding #2.) above:

Stain 1 according to the bottle is very harmful. But, if I am understanding you correctly we can just mist on and walk away and there won't be a risk of doing harm to occupants or pets after not dries?

No kids or pets should be in contact with the carpet while it is damp. However, as it work, it decomposes to water, carbon dioxide, oxygen and similar non-harmful ingredients. Once it is completely dry there is nothing that would harm anyone. No need to rinse since it breaks down as it works.

This is true for StainZone, Stain Magic and other similar products.
 
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