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Lift/CFM & Stuff

Chris K

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I know this discussion has been endless, but humor me...

A 36 blower has about the same lift as a 45 blower. The 45 blower has more CFM obviously. Does the extra CFM maintain the lift on longer hose runs or is lift finite, no matter how much CFM the blower produces?

I ask because a larger TM on long hose runs will clearly be running on pretty low lift, unless the CFM holds the lift, longer.

Make sense?
 

Chris K

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I ask because I have short TM syndrome lately and feel a need to buy a bigger machine. I have a Legend and a Boxxer. My hose runs are virtually all 100'-150', so I'm not trying to spend money with no return. My little machines give me plenty of heat, so I'm only talking about vacuum.
 

brian3180

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I went from a 33 blower to a 47 blower. It's big difference. The wand sticks to the carpet. My new wand is 2'' and the head is 16'' wide and it sticks to the carpet. I used a 1.5'' wand that was 12'' wide and sometimes I could get that seal from the wand to the carpet but I had to maintain that position or I would lose the seal to the floor. With the 47 blower the seal is automatic. What I recover is amazing too.
 

SRD

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All blowers max recomended specs are 15hg, 12 to 14hg on larger ones. CFM is the difference the larger you go lift should stay relatively the same
 
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brian3180

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I went from a 33 blower to a 47 blower. It's big difference. The wand sticks to the carpet. My new wand is 2'' and the head is 16'' wide and it sticks to the carpet. I used a 1.5'' wand that was 12'' wide and sometimes I could get that seal from the wand to the carpet but I had to maintain that position or I would lose the seal to the floor. With the 47 blower the seal is automatic. What I recover is amazing too.
I used the 12'' wide wand with the 33 blower machine.
 

Jim Davisson

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There is a few very simple things that you can do to get the most out of your current machines vacuum system, if you haven't already done so.
1. Remove all leaks from the blower to the wand
2. Clean your blower inlet screen with an acid to get some flow back or replace them
3. Dual 2" hose from the tank to a big filter like a boss, etc...
4. Remove any cuffs on the hose and use internal hose barbs

Here is a roots blower chart, on the right side it shows CFM at max lift, it is less CFM than min PSI on the discharge side (the number quoted in brochures). Take into account your machines blower RPM and you can get really close to what you are running at.

Screenshot_20190818-211250_Hancom Office Editor.jpg


With some effort and running your equipment at your hose runs and maintaining great lift to the wand and not lifting the wand after every stroke your dry times will improve. Rise times on smaller blowers are slower than big blowers rise times. Empty recovery tanks are slower on rise times than 1/2 full ones and small capacity recovery tanks are better on any day ending in Y, unless you have a #6 blower. 1.5" pipe wands natively run at higher lift off the carpet (visible on the TM gauge) than 2" pipe wands so depending on the size of your blower it will affect rise time if it's preloaded already. Anyway, I hope some of this is somewhat helpful and makes sense.
 
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brian3180

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There is a few very simple things that you can do to get the most out of your current machines vacuum system, if you haven't already done so.
1. Remove all leaks from the blower to the wand
2. Clean your blower inlet screen with an acid to get some flow back or replace them
3. Dual 2" hose from the tank to a big filter like a boss, etc...
4. Remove any cuffs on the hose and use internal hose barbs

Here is a roots blower chart, on the right side it shows CFM at max lift, it is less CFM than min PSI on the discharge side (the number quoted in brochures). Take into account your machines blower RPM and you can get really close to what you are running at.

View attachment 87276

With some effort and running your equipment at your hose runs and maintaining great lift to the wand and not lifting the wand after every stroke your dry times will improve. Rise times on smaller blowers are slower than big blowers rise times. Empty recovery tanks are slower on rise times than 1/2 full ones and small capacity recovery tanks are better on any day ending in Y, unless you have a #6 blower. 1.5" pipe wands natively run at higher lift off the carpet (visible on the TM gauge) than 2" pipe wands so depending on the size of your blower it will affect rise time if it's preloaded already. Anyway, I hope some of this is somewhat helpful and makes sense.
When I was using the 33 blower I redid the plumbing in/at the waste tank. I removed 4, yes 4, 90 degree elbows. Made a big difference. Can you restate the comparison between the 1.5'' and 2'' pipe wands?
 
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Jim Davisson

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When I was using the 33 blower I redid the plumbing in/at the waste tank. I removed 4, yes 4, 90 degree elbows. Made a big difference. Can you restate the comparison between the 1.5'' and 2'' pipe wands?
If you have a 1.5" wand and a 2" wand and interchange them on the exact setup, the 1.5" pipe wand will have a higher static lift reading on the TM panel when off the floor than a 2" because of the restriction of the pipe diameter. A 1.5" whip hose to a 2" wand does the same thing.

Operating lift at the wand while cleaning means a lot. Maintaining great lift and good CFM is better than good lift and great CFM to me. I don't run 2.5" hose or 4 to the door for an average hose run, it's not necessary for our setup.
 

Jim Davisson

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When I was using the 33 blower I redid the plumbing in/at the waste tank. I removed 4, yes 4, 90 degree elbows. Made a big difference. Can you restate the comparison between the 1.5'' and 2'' pipe wands?
If you have a 1.5" wand and a 2" wand and interchange them on the exact setup, the 1.5" pipe wand will have a higher static lift reading on the TM panel when off the floor than a 2" because of the restriction of the pipe diameter. A 1.5" whip hose to a 2" wand does the same thing.

Operating lift at the wand while cleaning means a lot. Maintaining great lift and good CFM is better than good lift and great CFM to me. I don't run 2.5" hose or 4 to the door for an average hose run, it's not necessary for our setup.
 
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Chris K

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Jan 8, 2017
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Chris Kelley
There is a few very simple things that you can do to get the most out of your current machines vacuum system, if you haven't already done so.
1. Remove all leaks from the blower to the wand
2. Clean your blower inlet screen with an acid to get some flow back or replace them
3. Dual 2" hose from the tank to a big filter like a boss, etc...
4. Remove any cuffs on the hose and use internal hose barbs

Here is a roots blower chart, on the right side it shows CFM at max lift, it is less CFM than min PSI on the discharge side (the number quoted in brochures). Take into account your machines blower RPM and you can get really close to what you are running at.

View attachment 87276

With some effort and running your equipment at your hose runs and maintaining great lift to the wand and not lifting the wand after every stroke your dry times will improve. Rise times on smaller blowers are slower than big blowers rise times. Empty recovery tanks are slower on rise times than 1/2 full ones and small capacity recovery tanks are better on any day ending in Y, unless you have a #6 blower. 1.5" pipe wands natively run at higher lift off the carpet (visible on the TM gauge) than 2" pipe wands so depending on the size of your blower it will affect rise time if it's preloaded already. Anyway, I hope some of this is somewhat helpful and makes sense.
Thanks for your input, you obviously know what you’re talking about.

A few questions:

- I noticed better airflow when I got rid of the barbs and switched to cuffs. I suppose it could be placebo effect. The barbs are definitely not 2” inside, so wouldn’t that choke off the flow?

- I have the Bentley (2”) and the 12” Devastator (1.5”). The Devastator really bites into the carpet but the Bentley seems to leave carpet drier. I wonder if the Devastator pulls more water from deeper in the carpet where the Bentley, due to more airflow, dries the top of the carpet better, making everything seem drier.

- My Boxxer has a stupid 90 degree fitting on top of the waste tank that connects to the 2” hose. Unless I modify the tank, I don’t see how I could run 2-2” hoses to a filter, unless I use a splitter off the main fitting on the tank. Would that be something to try?

Thanks again.
 

ACP

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Also how the blower is driven matters. We have 2 45 blower machines... one is belt driven with a very large waste tank 150gallon the other is coupler driven and driven a bit harder with a smaller 70gal waste tank....

The coupler driven smaller waste tank machine is significantly more powerful and lift charges up very fast...

but the huge waste tank is very convenient for huge high end homes not having to dump when doing all surfaces in the home plus showers etc.

For smaller dirty carpet jobs the smaller waste tank TM wins
 
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Chris K

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If you have a 1.5" wand and a 2" wand and interchange them on the exact setup, the 1.5" pipe wand will have a higher static lift reading on the TM panel when off the floor than a 2" because of the restriction of the pipe diameter. A 1.5" whip hose to a 2" wand does the same thing.

Operating lift at the wand while cleaning means a lot. Maintaining great lift and good CFM is better than good lift and great CFM to me. I don't run 2.5" hose or 4 to the door for an average hose run, it's not necessary for our setup.
Isn’t a greater difference between static lift and max lift what you want? Meaning if your 1.5” wand gives you 10” of static lift and your max lift is 15”, then the operating lift is 5”? Then a 2” wand only has 8” of static lift, giving you 7” of operating lift? I’m probably way off.
 

Chris K

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Also how the blower is driven matters. We have 2 45 blower machines... one is belt driven with a very large waste tank 150gallon the other is coupler driven and driven a bit harder with a smaller 70gal waste tank....

The coupler driven smaller waste tank machine is significantly more powerful and lift charges up very fast...

but the huge waste tank is very convenient for huge high end homes not having to dump when doing all surfaces in the home plus showers etc.

For smaller dirty carpet jobs the smaller waste tank TM wins
I know a guy that got a Judson (120 gallon waste tank) and my little Boxxer has lots more vacuum (70 gallon waste tank). I’d rather empty more often.
 

Jim Davisson

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Thanks for your input, you obviously know what you’re talking about.

A few questions:

- I noticed better airflow when I got rid of the barbs and switched to cuffs. I suppose it could be placebo effect. The barbs are definitely not 2” inside, so wouldn’t that choke off the flow?

- I have the Bentley (2”) and the 12” Devastator (1.5”). The Devastator really bites into the carpet but the Bentley seems to leave carpet drier. I wonder if the Devastator pulls more water from deeper in the carpet where the Bentley, due to more airflow, dries the top of the carpet better, making everything seem drier.

- My Boxxer has a stupid 90 degree fitting on top of the waste tank that connects to the 2” hose. Unless I modify the tank, I don’t see how I could run 2-2” hoses to a filter, unless I use a splitter off the main fitting on the tank. Would that be something to try?

Thanks again.
I use hose barbs if going vertical and 2" aluminum tube on flat work, not enough difference to sweat.

Each carpet is different and how the wand grabs, builder grade poly vs 50 oz nylon 2 different animals. Most wands are universally good and a specialist on the right carpet.

20190727_163513.jpg


We fixed our tank to go 4" to the back door.
 
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Jim Davisson

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Isn’t a greater difference between static lift and max lift what you want? Meaning if your 1.5” wand gives you 10” of static lift and your max lift is 15”, then the operating lift is 5”? Then a 2” wand only has 8” of static lift, giving you 7” of operating lift? I’m probably way off.
Great operating lift will be anywhere from 10-11" hg to below where the vacuum breaker trips. Steam action and a couple others intentionally run their blowers way above spec, but spray water into the inlet side of the blower. They make different silencers for water cooled blowers. These high lift water cooled blowers make a difference for long hose run commercial work when time is money and they ain't dickin around and gotta chew through some square footage. Higher lift at the wand means better CFM at the wand at distance.
 
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Chris K

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Great operating lift will be anywhere from 10-11" hg to below where the vacuum breaker trips. Steam action and a couple others intentionally run their blowers way above spec, but spray water into the inlet side of the blower. They make different silencers for water cooled blowers. These high lift water cooled blowers make a difference for long hose run commercial work when time is money and they ain't dickin around and gotta chew through some square footage. Higher lift at the wand means better CFM at the wand at distance.
Well that sucks... so if my vacuum breaker is set at 14” then I need to be running at 4ish with the wand attached or just the hose?
 

Jim Davisson

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Also how the blower is driven matters. We have 2 45 blower machines... one is belt driven with a very large waste tank 150gallon the other is coupler driven and driven a bit harder with a smaller 70gal waste tank....

The coupler driven smaller waste tank machine is significantly more powerful and lift charges up very fast...

but the huge waste tank is very convenient for huge high end homes not having to dump when doing all surfaces in the home plus showers etc.

For smaller dirty carpet jobs the smaller waste tank TM wins
Are the blowers turning at the same RPM? Most don't turn a blower at 3600 because with out a hospital grade or similar silencer they are freaking LOUD!
 

mrotto

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I redid the plumbing in/at the waste tank. I removed 4, yes 4, 90 degree elbows.
Thats one thing that bothered me about the Titan 575. Those darn 90 degree elbows on top of the waste tank. Dumb or what?

Cant complain about the suction though