Encapsulation - Film Former or Crystallizer

OxiFreshGuy

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I did encapsulation for years at Oxi, while I agree it's not the best method, I did go and view other methods of encap and I played around with various methods in my own apartment which I have dogs and children.

HWE won out every time to my trained eye BUT I could see the tremendous value to a well done encapsulation.
 
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3bstartup

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I did encapsulation for years at Oxi, while I agree it's not the best method, I did go and view other methods of encap and I played around with various methods in my own apartment which I have dogs and children.

HWE won out every time to my trained eye BUT I could see the tremendous value to a well done encapsulation.
Does anyone own or has anyone used "Whittaker" machines or their crystal products? Whittaker claims all crb machines are based on their design which was copied after their patent rights were exhausted. Like everyone else here, I'm trudging through marketing rhetoric vs actual capability of different cleaning methods and machines, so don't expect me to be sold on what you say. Please offer what you know. I've enjoyed reading this thread so far and all you guys are great cleaners who have already been where I'm trying to go.
 

Ymetimme

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Does anyone own or has anyone used "Whittaker" machines or their crystal products? Whittaker claims all crb machines are based on their design which was copied after their patent rights were exhausted. Like everyone else here, I'm trudging through marketing rhetoric vs actual capability of different cleaning methods and machines, so don't expect me to be sold on what you say. Please offer what you know. I've enjoyed reading this thread so far and all you guys are great cleaners who have already been where I'm trying to go.
Yes I have it is just okay it's really designed for commercial maintenance nursing homes etc
 
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smart n kleen

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My biggest problem now with VLM is I don't have confidence in VLM, so I almost always go with HWE, unless it's a job my hoses can't reach.Then I'm forced to use VLM.

I need to force myself to do more VLM this year.
I was exactly like you till we did a huge daycare center that was trashed. My employees we telling me to use VLM but I was worried that we’d have to come back and HWE afterwards which would be double work. I decided to try VLM and we killed it. I think it came out better with VLM than HWE. Sometimes you just have to try NEW things out. Go for it.
 

Jim Davisson

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@OldCarpetVet you really need to make a video! Showing how and when to use a brush, pads and bonnets. Which combinations and order of operations work best with different fibers and carpet construction types.

It still amazes me how after really thoroughly vacuuming with a turbocat that with the first step with a green or red pad has hair and small particals imbedded in it, WTH!
 

george8585

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That's why I like to use a CRB after Prespray for HWE or VLM on residential. A vacuum misses a lot. What your vacuum misses the CRB digs out.

1 - Vacuum
2 - Prespray
3 - CRB with 1 or 2 trays
4 - Extract with TM for HWE or OP with cotton bonnets for VLM.
 
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OldCarpetVet

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@OldCarpetVet you really need to make a video! Showing how and when to use a brush, pads and bonnets. Which combinations and order of operations work best with different fibers and carpet construction types.

It still amazes me how after really thoroughly vacuuming with a turbocat that with the first step with a green or red pad has hair and small particals imbedded in it, WTH!
Truth be told buddy, I should have done that a looooong time ago. Kinda hard now with no customers, or business anymore.

And you touched on something VERY important relating to VLM learning. (Or any method really) and that is the many different approaches to the various carpet fibers and soiling conditions to each fiber type in order to achieve outstanding results every time WITHOUT breaking the bank(s).

I had a few different ways (methods) of VLM cleaning depending I what I had in front of me. Many cleaners think of VLM encap cleaning as Brush & Spray method. And while that is the true, original interpretation of VLM cleaning, my opinion of that is....It's crap. I would never waste my time, or insult my customers intelligence with that method.of VLM. It's how RE Whittaker does it. I on the other hand actually like to remove the soil.

Now if I hurt people's fellings here, too bad. Grow a pair I say. I do not care how dirty a carpet is and how much you spray and scrub a carpet with a CRB machine. When you are done and the carpet is dry, vacuum that carpet with everything you got...at right angles until the cows come home and then shut the vacuum, take the bag out and cut it open. Do you know how much dirt you're going to see? Nothing!

So for those who think of that method when speaking of VLM cleaning, I understand how and why they would think it sucks
I do too. Thankfully I'm smarter than that as I know you are too Jim and some others here as well.

Anyway, maybe I can try to figure something out as far as a video, or a seminar.
 

OldCarpetVet

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I explain VLM vs HWE
Like taking off makeup
Works extra well with the ladies and blokes get it too hahahaha
Put soap on a face washer and rub rub flip it and rub
Then grab a couple of dry face washer towels rub rub flip rub rub, new towel and repeat
Vs soap on a face washing towel rub rub and washed off in the basin or shower....
Having said that @OldCarpetVet I’d kill, buy beer, give first child for your method/training in VLM
I get pretty good results VLM, but I don’t settle for that, I want amazing, knock your socks off like I can with my TM
You're too kind my friend. And I too would love to share a good Imperial Stout with you and show you some of my tricks of the trade.
 

OldCarpetVet

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I kleen for quite a few famous people to being close to Notre Dame lot of football Stars and some celebrities that live in this area that are Notre Dame alumnus.
But honestly famous people don't have dirty carpets for the most partand they're just human beings that wants to be treated as so. It's kind of funny the relationships you get we even pick up some of their pets from the airport and hilariously I've been peed on by one of their monkeys. because I'm still operating I can't mention who's who or what's what. One of the particular same as talk show host has me under a gag order. But we're in her estate about once a month doing touch up work.
We were rarely if ever use hwe for any of these customers
But it's great having a truckmount at your disposal if they like it or if they have water.
Very true. Nowadays only a fool would just have one means of cleaning the wide array of carpeting.
 
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Ymetimme

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Truth be told buddy, I should have done that a looooong time ago. Kinda hard now with no customers, or business anymore.

And you touched on something VERY important relating to VLM learning. (Or any method really) and that is the many different approaches to the various carpet fibers and soiling conditions to each fiber type in order to achieve outstanding results every time WITHOUT breaking the bank(s).

I had a few different ways (methods) of VLM cleaning depending I what I had in front of me. Many cleaners think of VLM encap cleaning as Brush & Spray method. And while that is the true, original interpretation of VLM cleaning, my opinion of that is....It's crap. I would never waste my time, or insult my customers intelligence with that method.of VLM. It's how RE Whittaker does it. I on the other hand actually like to remove the soil.

Now if I hurt people's fellings here, too bad. Grow a pair I say. I do not care how dirty a carpet is and how much you spray and scrub a carpet with a CRB machine. When you are done and the carpet is dry, vacuum that carpet with everything you got...at right angles until the cows come home and then shut the vacuum, take the bag out and cut it open. Do you know how much dirt you're going to see? Nothing!

So for those who think of that method when speaking of VLM cleaning, I understand how and why they would think it sucks
I do too. Thankfully I'm smarter than that as I know you are too Jim and some others here as well.

Anyway, maybe I can try to figure something out as far as a video, or a seminar.
My feelings are not hurt my 19 year old kid always says that when you use a CRb you are pretending to clean carpet hoping that the dirt removing dwarf show up and and remove it while singing hi ho.

They have their place weekly/ monthly maintenance we have several contracts in which we do So but it's me or my son show up we're getting out the floor machine and a swing a way after all what's a few dirty bonnets to throw in the washing machine

Crb are great at removing pet hair from carpet and agitating pre-spray the calling them a powerful cleaning tool
I don't know

They're more of a dirt spreading tool!!!

They do a really good job at making it even an easier career move with another method
 
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sbsscn

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I believe that you will be equally judged by your customers by how the carpet looks a month after your cleaning. If a better cleaning on the day of cleaning results in a dirtier carpet one month later, then in my opinion you have failed to provide a professional maintenance cleaning.

YOU Are SO Right!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 

Ymetimme

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YOU Are SO Right!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
That is so true it is my goal to never have dirty carpet. we currently have 12 medical buildings that we have maintenance contracts with us and when it's time for their yearly rinsing with hwe it often feels like a waste of time. But it is noticeably better than when we do our maintenance
 
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ACP

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CRB only encap is trash, and imho somewhat of a scam lol

Ive always had amazing results using pads and a good encap product on commercial carpet, and also feel like we are actually cleaning well when you see the black pads afterwards.

We did CRB encap some offices, I tried it on my own home to see what it would result in. Carpets got dirty again pretty fast, and was significantly worse of a clean than TM.

exactly what @OldCarpetVet said, you can post vac as much as you want..
 

BonnetPro

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The supposed difference between crystalizing polymers and film forming polymers is much ado about nothing. The focus on the differences is a result from marketing and not science.

I will disagree with Tom about that there is no difference between crystal and film.
The difference between medicine and poison can be the dose amount. So the statement that they are close and be be easily changed indicates that a change is needed to make a difference and that proves the difference is present. Crystallizes can create dust and films don't. That is a big difference in my mind. I can drag race a car with an auto trans and the other with a manual. While they are both headed down the same path they arrive by different methods of moving the car forward. Nobody would say the transmissions are the same. The polymers chemistries are different as are the way they react to the external factors placed on them like fiber flexing, foot traffic or vacuuming.
To me, pour the chem full strength into a glass into a glass and watch it crack after it dries is marketing, as you never use the product in the real world that way, but it places the product in a good light to some who see the marketing. Science would show that two things that are not identical are different as proved by their chemistry, abilities and other factors.
That why we have Ford and Chevy because people like the differences and choices.
 

OldCarpetVet

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The supposed difference between crystalizing polymers and film forming polymers is much ado about nothing. The focus on the differences is a result from marketing and not science.

I will disagree with Tom about that there is no difference between crystal and film.
The difference between medicine and poison can be the dose amount. So the statement that they are close and be be easily changed indicates that a change is needed to make a difference and that proves the difference is present. Crystallizes can create dust and films don't. That is a big difference in my mind. I can drag race a car with an auto trans and the other with a manual. While they are both headed down the same path they arrive by different methods of moving the car forward. Nobody would say the transmissions are the same. The polymers chemistries are different as are the way they react to the external factors placed on them like fiber flexing, foot traffic or vacuuming.
To me, pour the chem full strength into a glass into a glass and watch it crack after it dries is marketing, as you never use the product in the real world that way, but it places the product in a good light to some who see the marketing. Science would show that two things that are not identical are different as proved by their chemistry, abilities and other factors.
That why we have Ford and Chevy because people like the differences and choices.
I agree completely, John. Well defined!!
 

Select

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Huge huge HUGE fan of encap here, but much as I love it I know it's not always the best solution for every job. Sometimes you've just got to pull out the big guns.

More and more, I've been encouraging my guys to try using encap as a "maintenance" or interim clean with their pre-existing HWE customers. The idea of scheduling a quick touch-up every three to six months rather than waiting a whole year and having the house (or office) completely discombobulated for hours at a time is actually quite appealing when you explain the benefits.

It's an easier sell with commercial, but if you've got the right mix of charm and belief in what you're offering, you'd be surprised how many residential customers can be convinced to do it too.
Assuming we believe encapsulated as a maintenance service is great and wonderful - any tips on what the charm you describe might look, sound, and acts like, etc.?
 

ACP

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For residential @Select you just have to show up and then "qualify" them for low moisture. We do the walk through and tell them which areas qualify and which dont. We charge more for HWE than encap.

If most of the house doesnt qualify then we dont offer encap for last bit that does but.. if there are large sections of the home that are pretty clean then we pull it out and double team the job, 1 guy upstairs one guy downstairs.

Unless the entire job is VLM then the stairs are always cleaned with TM
 
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rob allen

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After all is said and done I am a fan of crystalizers. And why we chose to make one, SuperCap.

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