CFM testing thread from the old Cleanboard

James Cooper

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The Clean Board -> ROUND TABLE -> Hose and wand Testing Results
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Post Info TOPIC: Hose and wand Testing Results
James Cooper



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Hose and wand Testing Results
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Hose CFM TestingThe day we tested the hose runs we stretched out each run of hose in a straight line . It was raining lightly and was approximately 40 degrees outside temp. Each section of hose was joined by Joes Bristors cool cuffs . We used my Venturi Vortex and ran the machine at 14 hg. We used a exeter cfm gauge to record the cfm . Single hose 100 ft. 150 ft. 200 ft. 264.1 225.1 216.1

Single hose with "y"@ truck



100 ft. 150 ft. 200 ft.



265.1 233 208



Twin Hose to "y" +



100 ft. 150ft 200 ft.



382 * 374.1 309




* this test was performed on a different day . The day it was performed it was sunny and approximately 70 degrees .


+ last fifty ft of each run consisted of a "y" and 50 ft of single hose to complete the total run . For example , in the first test it had 2 twin fifty ft hoses from the machine to a "y" to fifty ft. , thus completing a 100 ft run .



Wand Testing



We did 2 series of tests on the wands . On the first series we were merely trying to distinguish the flows of each wands to compare them against each other. We tested these on the fisrt day of testing when we tested the hose runs - as stated before it was rainy and cold. These were tested while we were running the twin hoses ( 4 to the door ) .


We tested 4 wands the first day - the Prochem 802 , the AW29 , The CMP 14 Inch wand ( the Green Horn Version ) and the Westpak 12 inch . All wands were tested without glides . They were tested by puting a cfm probe over the slot on each end and in the middle , with the rest of the slot left open . Again , these numbers were for flow comparisons between wands only to determine which would flow more.


PC 802 AW29 Green Horn WP 12 inch


100 ft 46.76 51.50 50.4 48.5


150 ft 41.43 44.06 42.86 42.7

200 ft 35.9 38.76 35.4 35.8



These numbers were the average #'s from each end of the wand and the center .



I wanted to take these tests a step further so my next tests were made closing off all the wand slot EXCEPT the part which the probe went over . These tests were done at 100 ft twin hoses and 100 ft single run . It was sunny approximately 70 degrees . I only tested the WP 12 inch and the Green Horn ( CMP 14 ) .


Westpak 12 Green Horn


Twin 100 ft. 195.66 205


Single 100 ft. 170 192.33




Well , thats it , any questions , well , let them rip .



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James Cooper

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Thanks Coop

I appreciate the time you took to do this.

but I'm having a hard time telling whats, what.
maybe because of the board foremat doesn't allow the the numbers to line up across the page
or maybe cause I'm just dense.

could you help a brother out?

also, i'm not familiar with the CFM measuring devise you used.
Don't have a clue how they work or how they attach for measument.

but can it be stuck on the exhaust side of the blower to measure CFM through the wands?

..L.T.A.




link



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Seems to me that by using a prob at the head of the wand will give in acurate readings.

Why not read where the wand connects to the hose so you can see how much air actually goes through the wand.

this way you can actually test air flow with the wand on the carpet in a cleaning postion as well as free flow with the wand in the air.




James Cooper



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Im gonna shorten this and just post numbers since you guys have the gist of what I am doing . BTW , I dont beleive there is an accyrate way to get true numbers on the hose and wand . I think there may be a way to get them closer , but for my purposes I merely wanted to have a comparison tho see which ones flowed more .

I found there aint much difference in the wands , but among the hoses runs I found that the twin hoses did clearly pull more . Anyway on with the numbers .

single hose run of 2 inch @ 14 hg at 100 ft pulled 264.1 cfm , at 150 ft. pulled 225 cfm , and at 200 ft. pulled 216.1 cfm.

single hose run of 2 inch with "y" at machine at 14 at 100 ft. pulled 265 cfm , at 150 ft. pulled 233 cfm and at 200 ft. pulled 208 cfm .



Twin hose to "y" run of 2 inch to single 2 inch @ 14 hg . at 100 ft. ( 2 - 50 hoses - 'y" - 50 ft. 2 inch ) pulled 382 cfm * , at 150 ft. pulled 374.1 cfm , and at 200 pulled 309 cfm .



* ( again this test was performed on a different day than the others and different outside conditions )

Wand Testing

These test were performed useing twin hoses and "y" plus 50 .
Prochem 802
@ 100 ft pulled 46.76
@ 150 ft it pulled 41.43
@ 200 it pulled 35.9

Aw29
@100 ft it pulled 51.50
@ 150 ft it pulled 44.06
@ 200 ft it pulled 38.76

GH
@ 100 ft it pulled 50.4
@ 150 ft 42.86
@ 200 ft 35.4

wp 12
@100 ft 48.5
@150 ft 42.7
@ 200ft 35.8


These next tests were taken at the wand head with all the slot closed except where the probe was testing. It was tested at both sides and middle. We tested twin hoses and single hose runs of 100 ft.
wp single 170
wp twin 195.66

gh single 192.33
gh twin 205

There it is again .




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James Cooper

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Thanks Bro, that's much better


Last weekend I installed a Greenie 2.5 vac port to the waste tank lid and tried 50ft of 2.5 hose for the first time.
35 to 40ft 2" as a whip to wand.
(6 jet Ti wand w/GreenGlide slot glide)

Right away we noticed a difference in the sound of the wand when off the floor.
The sound of air rushing thru was much louder
Also "grabbed" the carpet tighter.

Nothing quantifiable, but judgeing by the amount of waste water we were dumping, I'm reasonably sure it's improved our recovery

BTW, my TM is a Steamway Powermatic
(45 blower set @14hg)


..L.T.A.


AmericanFinest



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now , since you have 2 and 2.5 its your turn to get us some numbers . Do you have a y ?

James

-- Edited by James Cooper at 12:53, 2008-02-03

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Nick Nellos
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No Y, Coop.

it's a 2.5 vac port and 2.5 vac hose connected to it.

I'll take that back, i do have a 2.5 to 2" Y

I had plans to try some things when i got it 7 months ago, but never got a roundtoit

i don't have any test insturments.

When i do testing, it's generally of a practical nature by doing side by side drying evaulations in my own home.

For chems and such, I do side by sides in the rat nasties

This spring I'll do side by side drying and recovery evaluations in my home.
(2.5 vs 2 all the way)

I'll let ya'll know what I find


..L.T.A.


Dave Rampage



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James,

Your numbers are low. I had 580 cfm at 100 feet. Maybe you should check the seal on the waste tank or the waste tank filters. Are you using 2 inch hose or 2.5 inch hose?

Dave


Caesar Ricci



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Ok,here are mine...

At 1450 rpms with 75 feet of 2.5 and 25 feet of 2inch... 279

At 1550 rpms with 75 feet of 2.5 and 25 feet of 2inch... 298

At 1650...ditto...323

At 1750...ditto...367

Now mine has a a pair of 6 feet 2.5s joined at the wye to the 2.5s...

Also this was using the dual butler 2.5 inch conversion with 45 degree elbows,not the new sweeping bend 2.5s...Forgot to grab that lid...

Now my friend pulled up and his is a bulter 47 blower also,running from the live reel to 2 inch to 25 feet of live whip 1.5...249...

I am uncertian wheter his filter bag was full of empty and or his screen was cleaned...

But what that means is he uses about 1.6 gallons and hour to get what I achieve and better at 1450 rpms ...Roughly about 1 gallon per hour...

An if I do bring it up to the 1650/1750 rpm range we use about the same gas but achieve higher flow...Very much...

For instance we clean a restaurant together...Both full 110 gallon tanks...I run 300 psi,he about 475/500...

He goes through 3/4 tank of water.I about 1/3 or little less.Same prespray,it is hooked to my unit.So a few gallons goes there as well...

No I mark the waste tank so as to know roughly how much water we recover each and every job.All jobs have a water mark area...

Mine is at least 2-4 inches higher since the conversion...It was 43 degrees when I ran the Butler .Also in a perfect straght line leading from the back of the truck to the side...

Had I tested the new lid or ran straight from the rear.It might have been a lil 5-7 cfms higher...

I tested each rpm range at least 4 times...Right around 2 rpms difference...

An yes, over a 100 words...lol...



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John Caesar Ricci
Caesar Ricci



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Also a extech an 100 with funnel adapter...3.5 inch...

I recommend one of these in your box ,to make sure you can achieve good flow at all times plus easy to trouble shoot obstructions,etc...Why not...

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John Caesar Ricci
Caesar Ricci



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An i measured as I was told,whether or not this is the most accurate method ?

But as testing develops more and more ,we shall see ?

But no wand testing just line...

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John Caesar Ricci
Jeff Ellis



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Caesar if by chance you do any more testing with your friend have him use your TM and you his. Id be interested in the change because of cleaning style.

Jeff

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James Cooper



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Dave I used a funnel as well . Did you put your probe directly over the hose oriface ??

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James Cooper

Caesar Ricci



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I always like to dry vac pass,he usually does not and does not like 2 inch cuz it hurts his wrists?

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John Caesar Ricci
Dave Rampage



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James,

Yep I used the funnel and centered it. Andy Lawrence handled the meter and I held the fan. Andy made sure I had it real straight.

Dave


Caesar Ricci



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I am heading to Extech in a week or so,to talk to the engineers and hopefully land a new account...Kill two boids wif one stone ...

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John Caesar Ricci
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I guess you did not have a WP 14" Coop?


James Cooper



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Nope , but I may be getting one at a steal .

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James Cooper

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Dave Rampage wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James,

Yep I used the funnel and centered it. Andy Lawrence handled the meter and I held the fan. Andy made sure I had it real straight.

Dave



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes we did the best we could, but I think that there needs to be some kind of holder to lock the tester in place, but all-in-all we did a good job. Did some heat testing also.



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James,

Will your gauge work with water in the airstream? That was the problem we came up with when searching for a CFM gauge to do testing. Tests with the wand off the carpet don't apply as well as real world numbers on pre-sprayed wet carpets, however the CFM gauges we enquired about all could not handle moisture in the airstream.

I was a little confused, did any of the wands have glides? If so, which and what configuration?

if you get the chance, give me a call. I've got a bunch of wands (WP, PC, PMF, Mytee, CMP) I can send you if you are interested in doing more testing. We are going to be running similar testing, not CFM, but moisture and soil load recovery at MF if any of you would like to attend.

Take care,
Lisa


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Lisa I will call you tomorrow - If you are reading here later pm me a good number to call u at .

BTW , all wands were tested w / o glides because while all wands had glides , they werent all the same . So we tested without them .

James posting as Nick

-- Edited by James Cooper at 22:26, 2008-02-05

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Nick Nellos
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It may not matter to some but since this was a CFM test than lets call the GreenHorn what it is , a CMP 14". If the tube and the wand head had modifications than id say call it a GreenHorn.

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Nick N

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Well , what it tells is exactly what I have been saying, Yes you can get a increase in the air moving thru the hose. BUt waht did you get when tested at the wand with out the wand slots closed on the ends?

The Green horn the Aw29 and west pak all pulled thru the wand about 50 cfm now it went up when the slots were closed of on the end giving it ahigh number of 192.

This is misleading because

1. the air flow thru the wand 50 cfm when you dont block of the end, so the test is moot , when you close of the ends the meter shoots to 192 so the test is moot . So lets just say we accept the test and shoot for a middle number between 50 and 192 we will divide 192 by 2 = 96 which is what I have been saying. Now how much air is flowing when the wand is interfaced to the carpet?

rex please answear the question.
 

Rug Rex

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What question? You are inserting hypotheticals that will vary more than the weather in the Gulf.

I like you Nick and I hate we have to keep this up. WE disagree on this. Why can't you accept that. The more specific I become the more critical it will sound. We test under different circustances with different priorities. You are hung up on the superficial CFM reading and I am concerned about reducing restrictions in the entire system particularly the hose run. Have you ever tried to drink a McDonalds milk shake with a coffee stirrer? Same principal.

You are pushing me for answers that you really don't want to hear.

I have explained my point of view and perception on this SOOO many times I am begining to wonder if my text don't show up on your screen or if there is a language barrier.:AddEmoticons04259:

We go from "there is no difference" to "well there is a difference if you do it like that, but if you do it my way it will be change the results" :rolleyes: Your perception of this topic is so far beyond the laws of logic and common sense I don't even know how to communicate with you man.

The more you push this the more curious people will become. They WILL figure it out and you will regret not taking my advice to let this go. It will embarace you more than criticism from a competitor ever could. If you truly believe you can't effect the available lift at the end of the hose run by utilizing larger hose NOTHING I say will mean any thing to you.

Anything else I say will be redundant. Good luck with this obsession you are gonna need it.

BTW I am not avoiding your question. It just doesn't apply.
 

Nick N

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Rex you cannot answear the question . You know its pure bull crap. It has nothing to do with the enviroment we live in. IF you really were intemt on doing what you said about less restiction then you or the guru from cali would invent a better wand to flow more air. Like the one I built. You know what you find. when you make a better wand for air flow it cannot be moved easily on the carpet.

So like so many of greenies buyers who wanted there money back and he refused have found him to be full of crapola.
 

Rug Rex

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Nick, do you even read my post? I never said the environment was involved. I SAID, your question was of a hypothetical nature with MORE VARIABLES than the weather. :confused:

You are avoiding actual results figures and RANDOMLY selecting numbers based not on reality but your ideal scenarios. You are the only person they make sense too. Your question to this debate is like "who is the greatest quarterback in Baseball?".

You also keep trying to make me the spokesperson for Greenie. We rarely even talk anymore. But if there are buyers that did not get a refund from him I find it odd that YOU are the only source for this information. Maybe YOUR source is pulling your leg. Get some details from them or tell them to call Greenie. You know better than anyone how unfairly critical BB customers can be. I can't imagine them not blasting the boards with that info if it were accurate.


Your wand comment is a smoke screen. I am not getting sucked into that. You can start a new thread and argue that with someone else.