Carpet Cleaning Industry Copy's, good or bad? | TruckMount Forums #1 Carpet Cleaning Forums

Carpet Cleaning Industry Copy's, good or bad?

rob allen

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Where to start. Let's go back to the beginning. Carpet cleaning as we know it started about 100 years ago. Over last century there has been a lot of progress in cleaning and restoring carpets. Quality of cleaning has gone up dramatically while quality of carpet has gone down dramatically. But that's a whole another story. For now we want to address industry copies & knock offs. Is it a copy or innovation?


Now knockoffs and copies have always been and always will be. That is the nature of man. There is an ancient proverb that says "there is nothing new under the sun". We all think mankind has come a long way and he has to a degree. However we can only take partial credit. In reality, we have done nothing but borrow or take from what is around us, the earth. Does that make man bad? I'm sure Mother Nature or a Creator doesn't mind unless we represent them incorrectly. How so?


If we claimed it as our own. You see knock offs or copy's are not a bad thing. Actually it has led to innovation. It keeps ones from having a monopoly. Yes some get patents but patents expire. Why? To avoid monopolies. To avoid stifling progress or new innovations. It also avoids price fixing. Stifling growth is anti-American and resembles more communistic and socialistic systems. Nice to be in a free America.


There are good things that come from copy's and knockoffs. Every single carpet cleaner in our industry has benefited from copy's over that last century. From glides, to cuffs, to wands, to rotary's, hoses, furn tools, chemicals, dehumidifiers, air movers, forums, groups, magazines, portables and even truckmounts. I could go on and on. The list is endless. And there is no end in sight.


However with the advent of the internet many have voiced their displeasure of copy's. In emotional rants with only half facts they run off emotional rants at anything or anyone. Sometimes they have partial info, or a misplaced allegiance to friends or even maybe paid (or receive for free) to promote a certain product. This actually works against or is counterproductive to our industry. Actually to each one of us. Imagine if this attitude prevailed.


We would all be driving Model T’s. Cars are still cars but look how far innovation and technology has taken us. Many of us drive Japanese automobiles and love them. Why? yes they all copies of the original cars but have been refined. Also it made the American companies step up their game delivering higher quality cars to compete. Don’t get me wrong, I love a model T car but I sure would drive and on long distance trips. You see most people don’t mind knockoffs as long as they exceed quality and innovation.


So when you hear about knock copy's rather than get emotional, use rational thinking and realize, without them where would we be today? We would be paying 2-3 times prices for glides, rotaries, wands, hoses, cordless extraction tools and truckmounts. Or have an inferior product. Plus with a complete monopoly quality would stay the same or even go down and they could charge obscene prices. Who wants that?




You see. Everything in our industry is a knock off or a copy. I guess the proverb is true "there is nothing new under the sun". And aren't we glad. It truly has led to innovation and higher quality products for us all. It has also led to better pricing, availability and innovation. So when you hear of copy's, realize it may not be such a bad thing after all.


They have always been and always will be. Get used to it. Actually you probably are using several things that are copy's, because everything you have and use in our industry is a copy. That is a fact. So it must not be such a bad thing.






Small list knockoffs in our industry. Feel free to add to it:


1-Glides. We love them don’t we. But lets look at the history. They were invented by Ken Harris in Canada. Then Jeff Smith (former owner Green Glides) copied them.
Chem-Dry they invented something similar and tried to stop glides. They lost in court and now Mytee, Wanders, TMF, Vinus wands and countless others make them.


2-Cuffs-Joe Bristor invented threaded cuffs. Then Mytee Links copied them followed by Snap cuffs.


3-Rotary Extractors-Invented by the Rotovac Munson brothers with RX 20. Mytee made an extractor, then Hoss and Drimaster. Rotovac even made Rotovac XL.


4-Truckmounts-Les Judson invented the slide in and DD's. Big Re, Prochem, Hydramaster, SteamAction,Blueline and the list goes on. Direct drives to best knowledge were started by Butler, followed by Cleanco, Sapphire and White Magic. Been few others since then. Isn't it nice to have choices?


5-Industry magazines-John Downing started Cleanfax. Then came ICS and TMF Clean Informer


6-Wands-1st came the AW29 now there are over 20 knockoffs. Afterwards came S bend wands and over 25 companies copied them. Then Ti wands. Several companies are now making knock offs. Then the swivel. There are 3 versions now and another on the way.


7-Chemicals. 100’s knock offs here. Everyone has Slams, Pacs and Formula’s. Now the rage is detergent based persprays that Les Judson made popular that is knocked off by internet cleaners. I could go on but it would take up pages. One thing I will say is every major and small chemical company I have visited has all their competitors top brands in their labs. Why? ;-)


8-Furniture tools-Spray & vac tools, list way too long. Then came Drimaster made 1st continuos flow tool. Sapphire and Rotovac and PMF have them now. Nice to have choices.


9-Forums & Groups- ICS started 1st one, followed by Cleanfax, the MB and then Truckmountforums. FB groups with TMF with several spins offs that the list keeps growing.


10-CET (Cordless extraction tools. Drag tools first, the the Zinger from 80’s then Zipper, CX 15 and Bonzer with more on horizon. Soon Mytee will release their mini zipper copy.


11-Door sealers. 1st came partial door guards then in late 80's and early 90's full guard doors, then seal doors and then courtesy door.

12-Schools-There have been many schools and niche schools in our industry even before IICRC got its start. Now we have ICRA and recently we built the only on hands full training diverse school at Truckmountforums. (Watch for our online school coming Feb 1st 2017!) And now there is the 1st online complete diverse training online school www.tmfacademy.com.


And lets not forget about trade shows. First came Connections followed by the Experience. The Mytee knocked it off with the ICE show. I'm sure more will follow. There are many small fests also.

Well that is just 12 areas. If you can think of others feel free to add one or two.


Rob Allen
Truckmountforums





Sent from my iPhone using TMF Forums
 
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Blacktiedetailing

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Are TMF Chem's copies, clones or simply labeled differently than others? Are they new under the sun or pure genius of a chemist? I think todd and I are going to private label a chem too. Do you think the industry would be upset if I took Tilemaster and named it my own? My brother in law is working on his Phd in Chemistry at a school in CA and has been working on his project of different Chem's. he started with laundry soap and is about to venture into carpet cleaning products. I'll keep everyone posted as he sends me his findings. What is "S" sauce? Is that the same stuff that was asked to be shipped to TMF worldwide headquarters or something new? I'd like to try some honestly. Nice write up, interesting information and as always, very insightful.
 

rob allen

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Are TMF Chem's copies, clones or simply labeled differently than others? Are they new under the sun or pure genius of a chemist? I think todd and I are going to private label a chem too. Do you think the industry would be upset if I took Tilemaster and named it my own? My brother in law is working on his Phd in Chemistry at a school in CA and has been working on his project of different Chem's. he started with laundry soap and is about to venture into carpet cleaning products. I'll keep everyone posted as he sends me his findings. What is "S" sauce? Is that the same stuff that was asked to be shipped to TMF worldwide headquarters or something new? I'd like to try some honestly. Nice write up, interesting information and as always, very insightful.
I've actually came to grips with competition. If you want to private label a chemical feel free to do so. Thats the beauty of America and free enterprise. Saiger Sauce. And really, I have had over 10 chemical companies tell me they buy other brands to try and copy or tweak. Ford motor company bought other brands and the Japs brought several American cars to tear down nd compare, tweak or use. Nothing new.

Lastly, I have contracted several chemists to write my now formulas. I have 5 of them locked in a bank vault like the Colonel Sanders of KFC did.
 
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Johnny Bravo

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I couldn't read the whole post, too damn long.

But it seems to be saying it's not only ok to copy someone else's idea or invention but for betterment of all. If that's the case, why didn't I hear this same attitude when Phat Kats forum started up?
 

rob allen

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I couldn't read the whole post, too damn long.

But it seems to be saying it's not only ok to copy someone else's idea or invention but for betterment of all. If that's the case, why didn't I hear this same attitude when Phat Kats forum started up?
Yep, but not like i could stop it. I've learned to not get emotionally involved anymore and realize copies and knockoffs will be in our country forever. It's American Capitalism. Have to learn to accept it. Look how many are upset that Trump won. But it's a free society. Love it or leave it.

Imagine if everyone got emotional about these things. NO one would go to Ice for instance. It's a 100% copy knock-off of Larry Coopers Experience. Or no one would buy cuffs because Mytee copied them. Or no one would buy glides because GreenGlides copied Ken Harris's invention.
 

rob allen

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rob allen

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You get so political in your replies to my comments.
Well everyone keeps calling me the Trump of carpet cleaning (Jose esp) so I use that as a metaphor. I might as well embrace it.

Liberals want "status Quo" and like you get upset when you don't like the American way.
 

admin

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I couldn't read the whole post, too damn long.

But it seems to be saying it's not only ok to copy someone else's idea or invention but for betterment of all. If that's the case, why didn't I hear this same attitude when Phat Kats forum started up?
Come on now Johnny, years back is that it was internal Moderators/Admins that did it and thought they could make millions and thought there was soooo much money to be made off forums. Its one thing working for a company being part of their team and copying VS not being part of a company and making something better.
 

rob allen

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As far as knock-offs go... I would hate for someone to feel a product I had was a knock off. You have to steal with style.. steal like an artist, be creative. If someone calls your product a knock off it means that it is too close to the original and doesn't really add much more for the consumer. For instance. Lift is a knock off of Uber, but Uber is not a knock-off of a cab service.
You mean like John L stealing Joe Bristors cuffs? The list is endless of knockoffs. You can't have both.
 

Ryankettering

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You mean like John L stealing Joe Bristors cuffs? The list is endless of knockoffs. You can't have both.
I've never heard of anyone calling them knock offs so Mytee must add value somewhere. A product could be nearly identical but not be a knock off. has to do with correct positioning.
 

LookNGood

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As far as knock-offs go... I would hate for someone to feel a product I had was a knock off. You have to steal with style.. steal like an artist, be creative. If someone calls your product a knock off it means that it is too close to the original and doesn't really add much more for the consumer. For instance. Lift is a knock off of Uber, but Uber is not a knock-off of a cab service.
Knock offs also lack the scope of the original concept. That's the thing with intellectual property also. I could share an idea with you, and sure you might take it and act as though it is your own. But you only have the info I gave you, and you may be missing the backbone of the concept that would allow proper execution.

Tom Forsythe has talked about this with copying chemicals. If you have a sample of product you want to recreate, you are going to miss some chemicals in your analysis and your copy may not be the same product.
 

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what is this conversation even about? who stole what?
 

Prosteam-sonomacounty

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I'm also well aware that you have fake accounts to read in the other groups. Was anything I said untrue?
Ryan, as someone who's made money from multiple boards , including this one and TMF FB, yer post seems fairly ungracious...

If I ran a board and those who used it to make money , bit the hand feeding them...
I'd block them faster than you can say handout...
Just my 2 cents...
 
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shane deubell

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The problem is this industry is really small so we are talking about a guy. A guy that people have built relationships with and it becomes super personal. Fast!

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I could have my own "commercial" PreSpray or encap done for about $2K.

Doesn't mean I should. ...
 

rob allen

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Ryan, as someone who's made money from multiple boards , including this one and TMF FB, yer post seems fairly ungracious...

If I ran a board and those who used it to make money , bit the hand feeding them...
I'd block them faster than you can say handout...
Just my 2 cents...
Excellent point. @Ryankettering has never said a "thank you" Rob or Tre for letting me use your mediums that you spend huge amounts of time or money on for free. Instead, like the generation we live in, they feel they have a displaced sense of "entitlement". To add insult to injury they take it further and say "I would not use those guys" all the while he is using our medium. Height of ungratefulness.
 

rob allen

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The problem is this industry is really small so we are talking about a guy. A guy that people have built relationships with and it becomes super personal. Fast!

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I could have my own "commercial" PreSpray or encap done for about $2K.

Doesn't mean I should. ...
Personally I think you should make your own commercial prespray. You see "that crowd already didn't like me, TMF or were influenced by the admins of other groups. So if they already dislike me and cut me off from products damn right I will make my own. If I am going to be slapped I might as well be slapped while making money.
 
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