Calling on VLM experts - damages

Luky

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I want to bring this topic for a discussion, because I know that VLM guys stand by their method. Within one week I had 2 different customers using , let's call it, company using dry method of carpet cleaning ( just trying to protect identity of company operating around 3000 franchises worldwide)
Before pre inspection customer pointed out many round discolored areas varying from size of the dime to a 4" in diameter. In one instance carpeting was light beige and color of the upon the inspection emitted pale ,platinum, purple-ish haze. Second household had darker gray- bluish olefin carpet. Same pattern, hundreds of small discolored areas ( I'm trying to avoid term stains, because they weren't). In both cases, similar process was used by the same company, just different franchise. Company is using both, hot carbonated water process and method of encapsulation. These are irreversible changes requiring carpet dyeing or replacement.
I believe that this is pattern, since this company is well established in the area.
VlM guys know answers already, but I would appreciate some feedback anyway, it would be beneficial for young carpet cleaners out here to know, how to avoid these situations.
The second question I have , how the hell is this company getting away with these damages found in all the rooms and caused by theirs cleaning method used twice a year. To uphold a code of professional conduct I didn't accelerate situation in any of the households with any comments.
Since one of the households planned out cleaning in stages, I've visit them again and inspected carpeting I've cleaned. Carpet was soft on touch and colors were vibrant ( there was some minor brown out, since I used only clean water, no rinse, trying to not disturb whatever was in the carpet before me.
What's your take on it and have you seen something similar in your area? Your feedback @OxiFreshGuy would matter, since you have an extensive experience in the industry.
 

OxiFreshGuy

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That might actually be outside my range of experience - we didn't use carbonated water with the bonnet method.

My guess is though, with dime sized issues, whatever chemistry they used wasn't diluted properly and maybe the bonnet was oversaturated and they started flinging dirty water/pre-spray droplets around.

If the "Carbonated water pre-spray" was over-oxidized with their percarbonate booster I could see that happening quite easily.
 

OldCarpetVet

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If I was a gambling man (and I'm not) and based on how you are describing what these carpets look like, I would say that it has nothing to do with the method, or chemistry of what the professional carpet cleaning company is either doing, or using. Instead what is more than likely happening is violent reactions are taking place. Let me explain.

The term "Mystery Yellowing", "Reactive Yellowing" and "BHT Yellowing" all do pretty much the same thing....Cause carpet to yellow.
Also know that it doesn't have to be yellow. The color change could also be greenish, bluish and purplish.

Here is what happens with Mystery Yellowing. Mrs. Harry Home Owner has noticed a spot on her carpet. She goes to the cabinet under her sink and takes out the Resolve. She probably hits all the spots she can see too and does this more than once.

Then one day she decides to call a Pro to clean her carpets. In many cases a Professional carpet cleaners chemistry reacts violently with the over the counter spotter and guess what happens? Little yellow, green, blue or purple stains pop up out of nowhere. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? The home owner asks. To her ( and many in this industry it is a MYSTERY. Get it?

In essence, this is Reactive Yellowing. And it dosen't just happen when over the counter spotters come in contact with our stuff. There are other ways for this violent reaction to occur.

Take BHT Yellowing. That happens to brand new carpets. I once had a customer who called me and told me that she noticed two tiny greenish color spots on her brand new carpet. I scheduled to take a look at it . When I got there a few days later there wasn't two tiny spot anymore. Instead there were hundreds.

What happened? This is what happened....The husband walked on that brand new carpet with wet shoes on. You see, BHT is a preservative that is used in adhesives that laminate the primary and secondary carpet backings together. That same BHT is also used in the adhesives used to make rebound pad. If you were around back in the late 1990s, you remember the war that was waged between the carpet mills and the makers of rebound pad.

Anyway, those BHT gas are being exhausted when the carpet is new and the one thing BHT gases react to is oil and asphalt.

Back to my customers husband. He was walking on his asphalt driveway in the rain and didnt take his shoes off. Next thing you know...KA-BOOM.
BHT Yellowing. An inspector from the mill came out and they did recieve a brand new carpet.

So until you have the FACTS, I would be hesitant on passing judgment on ourselves. Knowledge Is King.
 

Luky

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If I was a gambling man (and I'm not) and based on how you are describing what these carpets look like, I would say that it has nothing to do with the method, or chemistry of what the professional carpet cleaning company is either doing, or using. Instead what is more than likely happening is violent reactions are taking place. Let me explain.

The term "Mystery Yellowing", "Reactive Yellowing" and "BHT Yellowing" all do pretty much the same thing....Cause carpet to yellow.
Also know that it doesn't have to be yellow. The color change could also be greenish, bluish and purplish.

Here is what happens with Mystery Yellowing. Mrs. Harry Home Owner has noticed a spot on her carpet. She goes to the cabinet under her sink and takes out the Resolve. She probably hits all the spots she can see too and does this more than once.

Then one day she decides to call a Pro to clean her carpets. In many cases a Professional carpet cleaners chemistry reacts violently with the over the counter spotter and guess what happens? Little yellow, green, blue or purple stains pop up out of nowhere. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? The home owner asks. To her ( and many in this industry it is a MYSTERY. Get it?

In essence, this is Reactive Yellowing. And it dosen't just happen when over the counter spotters come in contact with our stuff. There are other ways for this violent reaction to occur.

Take BHT Yellowing. That happens to brand new carpets. I once had a customer who called me and told me that she noticed two tiny greenish color spots on her brand new carpet. I scheduled to take a look at it . When I got there a few days later there wasn't two tiny spot anymore. Instead there were hundreds.

What happened? This is what happened....The husband walked on that brand new carpet with wet shoes on. You see, BHT is a preservative that is used in adhesives that laminate the primary and secondary carpet backings together. That same BHT is also used in the adhesives used to make rebound pad. If you were around back in the late 1990s, you remember the war that was waged between the carpet mills and the makers of rebound pad.

Anyway, those BHT gas are being exhausted when the carpet is new and the one thing BHT gases react to is oil and asphalt.

Back to my customers husband. He was walking on his asphalt driveway in the rain and didnt take his shoes off. Next thing you know...KA-BOOM.
BHT Yellowing. An inspector from the mill came out and they did recieve a brand new carpet.

So until you have the FACTS, I would be hesitant on passing judgment on ourselves. Knowledge Is King.
I have seen plenty of those ( resolve & oxy fresh) actions. I don't mean to disregard your version, but similarities are unnerving, the second customer has no pets, no grandchildren, no reason for touch ups. Still there are about 30-40 spots in 10'x10' room. I have a different scenario. Don't we claim about ourselves that we are carpet " detectives? You walk in the room and first look will tell you how old carpet is, how often it gets clean, if someone used spot cleaning, etc.
Anyone else care to speculate what could've happened?
 

Luky

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I genuinely want to know what could cause mystery spots other than BHT. I used to have 4-5 jobs a day ( 6 days a week) That amounts easily to at least 1000 jobs a year. I've seen it all, that doesn't mean, I was able to identify all " mysteries". But I have never seen circle spots appearing out of nowhere on 15 -20 years old carpet in all the rooms. It might be coincidental that same company performed the work in both properties which ended up in damages I'm not pursuing matter for costumer, all I want to know, if it's possible in process of encapsulation omit some steps resulting in discoloration of the carpet on such a large scale. For example, juice to strong, way too much of ixidizers and poor extraction with bonnets. That's all I want to know. Is there VLM member, who can bring more light on this matter. For all I know, most HWE guys do encap as well.
Thanks
 

Luky

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That might actually be outside my range of experience - we didn't use carbonated water with the bonnet method.

My guess is though, with dime sized issues, whatever chemistry they used wasn't diluted properly and maybe the bonnet was oversaturated and they started flinging dirty water/pre-spray droplets around.

If the "Carbonated water pre-spray" was over-oxidized with their percarbonate booster I could see that happening quite easily.
Thanks for reply. Company claims that all they use is hot carbonated water, which easily fizzles out any stains. That's their exact wording. Extraction is done also by wand. The bonnet use is provided in their different method of cleaning.
Customer was definitely thrilled by my work, have never experienced soft on touch carpet. More work needs to be done in the house, I'll make pictures and post it here .
 

OldCarpetVet

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I have seen plenty of those ( resolve & oxy fresh) actions. I don't mean to disregard your version, but similarities are unnerving, the second customer has no pets, no grandchildren, no reason for touch ups. Still there are about 30-40 spots in 10'x10' room. I have a different scenario. Don't we claim about ourselves that we are carpet " detectives? You walk in the room and first look will tell you how old carpet is, how often it gets clean, if someone used spot cleaning, etc.
Anyone else care to speculate what could've happened?
I started using VLM Soil Transfer as my primary method back around 1992. Long before the term VLM came out. I cleaned thousands of carpets that way and experimented/ tested with my fair share of shampoos, encapsulation cleaners, etc and never once caused any damage like you are describing.

I was very good friends with the owners of the 2nd largest Chem Dry in the country at that time (NYC) and they subcontracted me out on many occasions for various work and I never saw them damage a thing. Whoever this company is that you speak of.....for all you know they're using Dollar Store crap on their customers carpets. And you'll probably never know. What I do know is two things.
1- I am a VLM expert
2- I have never seen a Professionally formulated cleaning solution, or tool do what you are describing.

So yes....more detective work is needed. But I think this will end up as a cold case. Good luck.
 
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OxiFreshGuy

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I remember one time, I had a light beige carpet and as I cleaned it a bunch of small red dots started appearing.

I freaked out - was still fairly new to this and had NO clue how this could happen. Customer was super upset; didn't believe me for a minute when I said this is the same chemical we use on most carpets with no problems...

Well the next day I came back to try and remove the red spots. Guess what I saw in her bedroom closet? A red blanket that looks like it sheds easily. I cut a fiber off it and put it on the carpet (couldn't even see the fiber it was so small), sprayed my chemical and WHAM red dot.

So I asked the customer if there was anything special about this blanket, "I bought it overseas and yes, I shake it out in my bedroom before putting it on the bed". So I take it outside and shake it, tons of little tiny red fibers start spreading everywhere.

*Facepalm

There was literally no way to see this upon pre-inspection, and vacuuming wasn't going to remove 100% of these fibers.
 

mrotto

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I dont know why I clicked on this forum but I did and read this thread.

About a month ago, I cleaned the carpet in 3 bedrooms hall and steps in a home I have been cleaning annually for like forever. Only an older couple live in the home. When I was finished and all the hoses back on the truck the customer called down to me (she was inspecting the carpet) and said there were some brown spots in the Master Bedroom. Now I know there were no brown spots before I cleaned the room and no brown spots after I groomed. In addition, I NEVER had had a problem at this house before. (nor any other house for that matter) so I go up and sure enough there were about 20 dot sized brown spots on the carpet as if drips of coffee was spilled. I didnt have a clue what they were or what caused them but one thing I DID know was that they should come out quickly since they werent there long. So I go out to my van and get a few spotters. Basic spotter, no luck. Solvent spotter, nothing. Coffee Stain Remover, nada. Rust remover, nope. Stain 1 they came right out.

A week later she calls back and said a few came back. I simply took my spotting machine and rinsed with water, all came out instantly (I would have used it on the initial cleaning but dont carry it on the truck all the time)

Still dont have any idea what happened. Ive been doing this for over 30 years and never came across that. Didnt use anything different to clean.

Its a total mystery.
 

Luky

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I dont know why I clicked on this forum but I did and read this thread.

About a month ago, I cleaned the carpet in 3 bedrooms hall and steps in a home I have been cleaning annually for like forever. Only an older couple live in the home. When I was finished and all the hoses back on the truck the customer called down to me (she was inspecting the carpet) and said there were some brown spots in the Master Bedroom. Now I know there were no brown spots before I cleaned the room and no brown spots after I groomed. In addition, I NEVER had had a problem at this house before. (nor any other house for that matter) so I go up and sure enough there were about 20 dot sized brown spots on the carpet as if drips of coffee was spilled. I didnt have a clue what they were or what caused them but one thing I DID know was that they should come out quickly since they werent there long. So I go out to my van and get a few spotters. Basic spotter, no luck. Solvent spotter, nothing. Coffee Stain Remover, nada. Rust remover, nope. Stain 1 they came right out.

A week later she calls back and said a few came back. I simply took my spotting machine and rinsed with water, all came out instantly (I would have used it on the initial cleaning but dont carry it on the truck all the time)

Still dont have any idea what happened. Ive been doing this for over 30 years and never came across that. Didnt use anything different to clean.

Its a total mystery.
Until @OldCarpetVet started to talk about BHT, I would keep at my suspicion on third party fault. In both cases, same week, different homes, different styles and age of carpeting,
mom and daughter, same situation. In both cases, spots were already there and customer was very adamant about outcome in favor of hwe.
On the other hand, even though I always ask customer about previous use of industrial strength products to treat stains, it happens that my prespray interacts with l residues left. In such cases, I'm thinking to start practicing rinse before prespray. But often I don't know, what product was used, so it's unclear if I ought to use ammonia, alkaline or acidic rinse. What's your take on this aspect?
Just this morning, my unit was choking on lot of foam . I knew, I didn't nuke it, actually I used only 4 oz. of Saiger"s sauce, 2 oz. of Harvard oxy booster in 1.5 gal container while using injection sprayer. Longer run(175") was outweighed with gravity helping air flow from a 3rd floor. Older lady finally told me that Molly... sprinkled some powder and use some " machine " to clean her carpet in the past. It was the first time this year that I used crystal defoamer...
 

rob allen

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Here’s my take. A lot of industry products are reverting to sodium hydroxide, optical brighteners and sodium hypochlorite to get newer gen carpets clean. It’s irresponsible and lazy formulations to give the initial look without considering the long time consequences. You don’t mix it properly and little concentrated dots hit the floor and it can really cause issues like you described.
 
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