By the numbers.......6.6"LX vs 8.4" in series

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Ymetimme

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Dear me ymetimme. I understand many consider plumbing a gauge at the wand head as butchering a wand much like putting a hole in the side of your vacuum tank to place a gauge there. The point on putting a gauge at the wand head is that is the location of the cleaning action and so some are interested in the actual cleaning powere at that location. That is where you will see the real vacuum performance. I would venture to say if you put your gauge on the inlet of the unit your water lift would be the same as what you already measured. That is not telling you the performance of your vacuums at the carpet. If you are only interested in lift at the machine you did a superb job. Keep up the good work.
By the way John I don't have to put a hole in the side of my tank it's designed with a clean out for the pump out I just stuck the Gage there the silver thing you see next to it's something you'll have to try to copy and guess what at what is for
20180626_142859~2.jpg
 

Jim Davisson

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Very interested in your results. Not exactly sure what you mean by the Venturi statement though. I have built a Venturi for series vac motor exhaust that pulls 45 CFM of hot air out of the motor compartment with no power consumption.
 
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John LaBarbera

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By the way John I don't have to put a hole in the side of my tank it's designed with a clean out for the pump out I just stuck the Gage there the silver thing you see next to it's something you'll have to try to copy and guess what at what is for View attachment 78740
Let me see wise guy. Could it be the hose connection to prime and power your underpowered pump out?
 

Ymetimme

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Very interested in your results. Not exactly sure what you mean by the Venturi statement though. I have built a Venturi for series vac motor exhaust that pulls 45 CFM of hot air out of the motor compartment with no power consumption.
Jim you will soon see I've been busy working today but there is a natural Venturi that forms in the head of the wand as air moves (cfm)form a large orifice to a small orifice the velocity /Force (lift) is increased. Even a terrible carpet wand as these principles built within it. So when you place the gauge at the end of the wand and it is sealed properly against the carpet ( both wet and dry)it will show what does sealed system produces against damp carpet for example you will see. I've been very busy taking care of my valuable customers.
This is been a very frustrating discussion for me I used to be a diagnostic technician in the automotive industry I understand how vacuum works Very well. And there are fundamentals when it comes to vacuum. I would love to be able to educate people on this subject but unfortunately it takes a lot of time to explain both the physics and the Dynamics when it comes to CFM / air movement and lift in a sealed system everybody that owns a car with an internal combustion engine has a vacuum pump that runs on gasoline so as a part of my previous career I had to be able to figure both pumping losses and gains in a vacuum and how curvatures and radius is effect the velocity of air movement. And what's frustrates me is I work with engineers they took extensive notes documenting everything John does not produce anything other than an advertising pamphlet and then says you prove it he's the one making the claims at the end of the wand and what is even more deceptive is the fact that when you're cleaning carpet it should be a low loss sealed(due to vacuum leaks caused by the carpets irregularities leaks and hose cuffs Etc) system so yes the numbers will be lower at the end of the wand but not as much as he saying. I will take pictures when I have time to set everything up and demonstrate thank you for your patience
 

goomer

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Keep up the testing.

There has been a lack of independent testing on 8.4" units.

I have no doubt your Jag with 8.4"s is more than capable to handle whatever you can throw at it.

But......as your testing has actually confirmed so far, the particular 8.4" motors being used here do not match the performance numbers of twin LX motors in series at the machine, so why would anyone expect them to outperform at 50+, 100+, 150+ feet?.

Like I said, I will believe better numbers from 8.4"s when I see them.

Until then, I will assume it is fact that twin LX motors in series perform higher than these 8.4"s in parallel.

Does that in any way mean a Mytee unit with LX motors is a universally better choice, than a unit with 8.4"s, like a Jag?

Not at all.

There are, or at lest should be, a world of other factors to consider when carefully choosing a unit.
 

Ed Valentine

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groomer;

Always appreciate your comments and threads, however, IMHO, it is my belief that the specifications offered by the actual manufacturer of the 6.6 and the 8.4 motors (Ametek) which I kindly listed in an effort to keep this subject on a level plane so to speak, has been pushed to the side. In one sense, that is alright and not a problem because everyone realizes that John is promoting his business/equipment (even tho he occasionally throws in his jabs about ours such as that one above-lol! ).

Here is an additional communication we received from one of Ameteks' inside Motor Specialist (beleive it or not) on 6/11/18 (on file) which I did not post on purpose because I did not want to derail or rain on anyones dreams of "more-more-more":

"The 6.6 vacuum would not be stronger. One 6.6 would never get 173cfm and 143" lift , it could maybe get one or the other however at a max there is no way it would operate there. The 8.4 vac motor would definitely be stronger!"

Further the performance/power of a motor also corresponds to the "Air Watts", and the 8.4 has it following way behind.

In conclusion, allow me to say that every manufacturer, including john, has their own products which they profess to be the best. Some Claim this; while others have Proven this.
For us here, we continue to refine and tweat a proven system with the focus on efficiency and very high performance for the Operator, and we will continue to do so.

We are glad that mytee has chosen this avenue! Both small and large are good motors.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp
 

John LaBarbera

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groomer;

Always appreciate your comments and threads, however, IMHO, it is my belief that the specifications offered by the actual manufacturer of the 6.6 and the 8.4 motors (Ametek) which I kindly listed in an effort to keep this subject on a level plane so to speak, has been pushed to the side. In one sense, that is alright and not a problem because everyone realizes that John is promoting his business/equipment (even tho he occasionally throws in his jabs about ours such as that one above-lol! ).

Here is an additional communication we received from one of Ameteks' inside Motor Specialist (beleive it or not) on 6/11/18 (on file) which I did not post on purpose because I did not want to derail or rain on anyones dreams of "more-more-more":

"The 6.6 vacuum would not be stronger. One 6.6 would never get 173cfm and 143" lift , it could maybe get one or the other however at a max there is no way it would operate there. The 8.4 vac motor would definitely be stronger!"

Further the performance/power of a motor also corresponds to the "Air Watts", and the 8.4 has it following way behind.

In conclusion, allow me to say that every manufacturer, including john, has their own products which they profess to be the best. Some Claim this; while others have Proven this.
For us here, we continue to refine and tweat a proven system with the focus on efficiency and very high performance for the Operator, and we will continue to do so.

We are glad that mytee has chosen this avenue! Both small and large are good motors.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp
Lol. Ed you’ve put your eggs in the 8.4 basket and you need to “stick” that. We understand. However, it’s not just “John” who is saying the LX motors out perform all others. Everyone that has used them. Larry Cobb for one who has the broadest experience in this industry as a manufacturer, distributor and electrical engineer and more important is straight shooter agrees regarding the superior performance of the LX motors. Some guys have even made and market adapter kits for the LX motors. That would never have happen and has not happened with the mediocre performance of the 8.4.
 

CCWorks

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Some ones hiding something….

Is that toile paper on its neck?


I think testing air flow from the exhaust is the best method for testing air flow with wand on carpet.

Air flow proves there is water lift when dealing with restrictions, like wand on carpet and long hose runs.


 
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Ymetimme

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Lol. Ed you’ve put your eggs in the 8.4 basket and you need to “stick” that. We understand. However, it’s not just “John” who is saying the LX motors out perform all others. Everyone that has used them. Larry Cobb for one who has the broadest experience in this industry as a manufacturer, distributor and electrical engineer and more important is straight shooter agrees regarding the superior performance of the LX motors. Some guys have even made and market adapter kits for the LX motors. That would never have happen and has not happened with the mediocre performance of the 8.4.
Well heck yeah if I sold mytee extractors and some other cheap knockoff brand I would be singing the Praises of any new development Larry wants to make money like the rest of us he's not a bad guy he's promoting a product
He also used to praise how great those high performance three stages were and sold kits for them there's is something being overlooked 8. 4 are big and require more space to put in series or for that matter even parallel and for that matter. All manufacturers would have to consider can we put these in our machines without doing heavy modification. And if you're in adapting an old machine you would also have to consider it. I have a century 400 ninja and there's absolutely no way to put in a 8. 4 in it
 

Ed Valentine

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John;

If you recall/remember, we were using the 6.6 vacuum motors long ago in one of our models; then after one year of independent testing, moved up to the 8.4. We currently ---still use----the 6.6 motors in two other model machines. They are powerful and great. Thus, very familiar with them as is the actual manufacturer of them which I would put most of "my eggs" as you stated. If you recall, it wasn't long ago when you pitted your 5.7 Chinese made vac motors (we also tested those, btw, just for your knowledge) and slammed our then, Ametek 6.6, as blowing them away. Fast forward, welcome to Ametek and the 6.6 my friend .

This isn't about; "You vs. Me" , or "Your equipment vs. Ours", rather, it is about the truth from the manufacturer. BOTH the 6.6 and the 8.4 motors are very good ones mostly because they are made by a great company named Ametek. Thus you are on the right track from that stand point, IMHO.

In regards to Larry Cobb, he has been a very loyal customer of yours and thats great. Seems like a nice fellow however his thoughts and beliefs.

Now, go sell your fine equipment and my best advice might be to spend less time trying to make a candalope into a watermelon.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
 
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Ymetimme

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Tim yeater
Some ones hiding something….

Is that toile paper on its neck?


I think testing air flow from the exhaust is the best method for testing air flow with wand on carpet.

Air flow proves there is water lift when dealing with restrictions, like wand on carpet and long hose runs.


Measuring cfm's on the exhaust is one way of doing it I'm currently working on a way of measuring cfm's Within the hose itself right before it hooks to the wand it's going to involve using an automotive style mass air flow sensor with an accuracy of 0.001 percent I'm having to get one from either a Toyota Land Cruiser or a Land Rover due to the fact that they are made water resistant my son and I are also working on the mathematical equation in order to convert the square wave communication in the numbers that people can understand. yes measuring from the exhaust is the current way however it does have some accuracy issues due to the fact then and altimeter has a spinning fan and counts revolutions and can cause restriction in and of itself
 

CCWorks

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Measuring cfm's on the exhaust is one way of doing it I'm currently working on a way of measuring cfm's Within the hose itself right before it hooks to the wand it's going to involve using an automotive style mass air flow sensor with an accuracy of 0.001 percent I'm having to get one from either a Toyota Land Cruiser or a Land Rover due to the fact that they are made water resistant my son and I are also working on the mathematical equation in order to convert the square wave communication in the numbers that people can understand. yes measuring from the exhaust is the current way however it does have some accuracy issues due to the fact then and altimeter has a spinning fan and counts revolutions and can cause restriction in and of itself
 

Ymetimme

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The ribbon is a great visual display but it really doesn't tell the whole story. Essentially a vacuum motor is a compressor when you seal against the carpet it is under compression /load therefore it is not able to move as much air. The higher the CFM the faster you'll be able to create a seal and reach maximum lift. Therefore the faster you'll be able to clean carpet when draw more water through the carpet it's about reaching the best balance and Design. You guys will see you once I get my testing completed it'll be numbers on paper.
 
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goomer

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there's is something being overlooked 8. 4 are big and require more space to put in series or for that matter even parallel and for that matter. All manufacturers would have to consider can we put these in our machines without doing heavy modification. And if you're in adapting an old machine you would also have to consider it. I have a century 400 ninja and there's absolutely no way to put in a 8. 4 in it
Excellent point, and one that I have noted before.

The shear size of the 8.4" motors make it very difficult for them to be able to claim any sizable share of the portable unit market.

They are just too fooking big to fit into any machine that can be considered "mid-sized", which will always be the "sweet-spot" for manufacturers.
 

John LaBarbera

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John;

If you recall/remember, we were using the 6.6 vacuum motors long ago in one of our models; then after one year of independent testing, moved up to the 8.4. We currently ---still use----the 6.6 motors in two other model machines. They are powerful and great. Thus, very familiar with them as is the actual manufacturer of them which I would put most of "my eggs" as you stated. If you recall, it wasn't long ago when you pitted your 5.7 Chinese made vac motors (we also tested those, btw, just for your knowledge) and slammed our then, Ametek 6.6, as blowing them away. Fast forward, welcome to Ametek and the 6.6 my friend .

This isn't about; "You vs. Me" , or "Your equipment vs. Ours", rather, it is about the truth from the manufacturer. BOTH the 6.6 and the 8.4 motors are very good ones mostly because they are made by a great company named Ametek. Thus you are on the right track from that stand point, IMHO.

In regards to Larry Cobb, he has been a very loyal customer of yours and thats great. Seems like a nice fellow however his thoughts and beliefs.

Now, go sell your fine equipment and my best advice might be to spend less time trying to make a candalope into a watermelon.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
Lol.face it. Truth is not your strong suit. Ed you use more words and say nothing meaningful. Larry Cobb used 8.4’s and shifted to the LX. Not because of me but because they are better performers. You fancy yourself a wannabe engineer with no degree. Larry Cobb has a degree in electronics so it is more than just his
“ thoughts and beliefs”. You would do well to learn from him.
The truth of the matter is the LX motors speak for themselves. When you get over yourself you may want to try those LX motors out. Lol
 
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Ed Valentine

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John;

Please do not be mean about it. Not necessary at all.

If you are referring to "the truth", then allow me to say truthfully that "you're too much"!

Thanks, John. Keep doing what you do............................................best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best;
Ed Valentine
 

Ymetimme

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Lol.face it. Truth is not your strong suit. Ed you use more words and say nothing meaningful. Larry Cobb used 8.4’s and shifted to the LX. Not because of me but because they are better performers. You fancy yourself a wannabe engineer with no degree. Larry Cobb has a degree in electronics so it is more than just his
“ thoughts and beliefs”. You would do well to learn from him.
The truth of the matter is the LX motors speak for themselves. When you get over yourself you may want to try those LX motors out. Lol
Please mr. Labarber there's no reason to throw insults at mr. Valentine or anyone

Henry Ford didn't have a degree

Edison didn't have a degree

Bill Gates did not have a degree.

I think they were able to able to problem-solve and engineer pretty well. And if they couldn't I'm sure they hired someone that can.
Offend my level of Education gets in my way and doesn't allow me to be humble and look at the whole picture so I have to step back and evaluate everything.
As a diagnostician I had to solve problems Engineers could not figure out. It has the tendency to make you a cocky. And that is not good when you are trying to be unbiased and solve problems.
And I have found Ed Valentine to be one of the most humble and intelligent individuals I have ever worked with.

And I think Larry Cobb is a great guy and I'm sure you found out when it comes right down to it you can't stuff 8. 4 stuff in everything they're big the 6. 6 is considerably smaller
Making it more convenient to modify into older equipment. Larry also sells your product it would not be very intelligent way of promoting his business if he did not scream the Praises of your design and recommend putting it in anything and everything.

I am still doing my testing and I will release my findings when I have completed.
Thank everyone and have a great day
 
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