By the numbers.......6.6"LX vs 8.4" in series

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John LaBarbera

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#21
We should soon have some additional testing data on LX motors in series from an All-star member here who is no stranger to Mytee units and is currently retro-fitting LX motors into his unit using my adapter kits.

I have no doubt the numbers won't disappoint.
I appreciate these positive comments. They reflect our sentiments exactly. When I first tested the prototypes of these LX motors I was simply amazed. We decided to build a range of machines around them, not really know how the PCCs would respond to this radical innovation. We are very happy to see the industry for the most part accepting these motors across the board. Their performance is simply unequaled. We just finished adding them to our LTD5 LX and the Speedster 1005LX. I think we have six models with these LX motor in them.
 

goomer

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Feb 16, 2009
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Frank Mendo
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#22
Gooner
Honestly if Ametek ever releases specs from Lab testing of the LX 6.6s
the specs will most likely even higher .
I wouldn't be surprised, and even think 8.4"s may have better totals in series than the limited info available.

But even if that is the case, I do not think it will be enough to justify using such large motors, when there is a much more compact alternative with better specs all around.
 

John LaBarbera

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#23
I wouldn't be surprised, and even think 8.4"s may have better totals in series than the limited info available.

But even if that is the case, I do not think it will be enough to justify using such large motors, when there is a much more compact alternative with better specs all around.
8.4s in series or parallel do not equal the performance of the LX motors. I know that for a fact as I’ve tested them right along side each other. 8.4s were design to replace the 7.2 in central vacuum systems for vacuuming dry debris. Some think because they are large that they will naturally perform better. Not true. Ametek also makes a product call the Windjammer. Bigger footprint than an 8.4, good cfm, but lack luster water lift.
 
Apr 27, 2018
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Tim yeater
#24
I prefer the two 8.4 in the Jaguar it is just far superior in engineering.
 
Apr 27, 2018
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Tim yeater
#27
Can you elaborate a little on that statement?
There's a lot of design that went into the Jaguar for example start up and run capacitors double stack for the vacuum port flow redirection in the waste tank so the water heads toward the bottom of the tank the deformer can be added without shutting down for unhooking vacuum hose and the 8.4 stay running cool even on the hottest days. but if they get too hot they have thermal protection so you don't burn them up
And I'm really sick of the obsession on numbers series versus parallel it just keeps going and going and going. We all have the same goal that is to get carpet is clean and dry as possible which involves a 12-inch lot a quarter of an inch wide the facts are you can only move so much air through it and if it pulls too hard it sticks to the carpet I have found that I get on average 2-hour Dry times with the jaguar in my heater and that's with the hundred fifty foot run my customers are always happy with the result
 

Jim Davisson

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#28
Nothing wrong with staying with your familiar equipment that gives you great results. There's a lot of us who have never had 2 motors perform like the LX's and this much improved performance means, quality, speed and ft² per hour go up. In the end it's about revenue generated. If you stack enough even small improvements together while quality and speed goes up you might fit in an extra small job or two per day. I know I have been able too.
 

John LaBarbera

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#29
There's a lot of design that went into the Jaguar for example start up and run capacitors double stack for the vacuum port flow redirection in the waste tank so the water heads toward the bottom of the tank the deformer can be added without shutting down for unhooking vacuum hose and the 8.4 stay running cool even on the hottest days. but if they get too hot they have thermal protection so you don't burn them up
And I'm really sick of the obsession on numbers series versus parallel it just keeps going and going and going. We all have the same goal that is to get carpet is clean and dry as possible which involves a 12-inch lot a quarter of an inch wide the facts are you can only move so much air through it and if it pulls too hard it sticks to the carpet I have found that I get on average 2-hour Dry times with the jaguar in my heater and that's with the hundred fifty foot run my customers are always happy with the result
I think it’s important that you are happy with your purchase. However, your comment regarding design are overstated. Capacitor start capacitor run motors have been with us for 100 years. Motors can run hot but within there insulation range. Some motors will run hot because they are inefficiently using the voltage. The LX motor are the most efficient vacuum motors available today. While that may not be important to you it is to some. You are right that the cleaning is done at the at the carpet. The LX motor are 20-30% more lift at the carpet. The more water you remove translates into remove more soil faster. If you are 100-200’ from the machine doesn’t it make sense to put the defoamer agent in the hose instead of walking back to the machine? One advantage for putting it in the hose is you kill the foam before it enters the machine.
Most motors have thermal cut offs. I think you have a decent machine that cleans carpet so you are rightly happy. That’s all that matters. Don’t confuse happy with design. They are two different things.


Anyone ever hear of the “Manchurian Candidate”. It’s an old movie.
 
Oct 20, 2011
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mn
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jonathon allgood
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#30
The 8.4" motors have better lift in series both at the machine and at the CWI. Can someone please prove me wrong? (HINT: NOT with a chart)
 
Apr 27, 2018
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Tim yeater
#32
So if you're not buying a new machine and you're adapting old machine I think you would be happy with 2 8.4 . Ran in series or parallel the new 6.6 LX design is primarily designed to be ran in series from my understanding which does put a lot of heat in the second vacuum motor and may cause a longevity issue will see. most people would be absolutely thrilled with either if they're adapting in them to work in an older machine. When it comes more power means more work done in a day that's absolutely ridiculous I have an a power clean Genesis will the number 56 blower it's capable of running two wands with ridiculous hose runs. But me working by myself cannot get more done with it then. I can with my Jaguar 8.4. and as far as cleaning results I can't tell a difference and customers definitely cannot and prefer how quiet the EMT is The dry times are the same with both. And customers are happy with the work I do with either way
So what it comes down to people need to not be stuck on just numbers Quality and speed of workmanship because let's face it you squeeze an extra job at the end of the day and your absolutely beat do poor workmanship and you have call back you just work twice for the same money regardless whether you're running 2 6.6 LX Motors or 2 8.4
 

Ed Valentine

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Oct 8, 2008
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cross-american.com
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#34
I feel compelled, at this point, to bring the above statements and contentions back into reality. Keep in mind, please, that I did not want to rain on anyone's parade, either those once again statements from mytee,and johns promotional adjenda, or the supposed excitement from some of the readers who are always happy to see something new and possibly to their advantage.

Keep in mind that we, at Cross-American were using the Ametek 6.6 vacuum motors long before these were common place in our Industry. In fact, they were even critized by the mytee company when comparing to their (at the time) all new Chinese vacuum motors. We tested the single stage, dual stage in both the 6.6 and the 8.4 looking for higher performances. Most are aware that we progressed to a specific 8.4 industrial motor for a very good reason. Thus, the assumption made by our competitor must be clarified further with the actual truth below, proving that the 6.6 motor stated does not exceed the 8.4 motor below.

Please see the below evaluation of the motors.





122628 6.6 1 stage

717 PAW

7/8 AW 680

Sealed 115”

Max CFM 172

Max amps about 17.5. About 15.8 at 7/8”



122502 8.4 2 stage. High Sealed Version

710 PAW

7/8 AW 704

Sealed 152”

Max CFM 137

Max amps about 15. About 14.8 at 7/8”



Summary

The 6.6 was designed to run above 15 amps to get more performance. Max sealed is 115” and AW is lower at operating point (680) 7/8”. About 82 CFM at the same operating point.

The 8.4 runs below the 15 amp limit. Max sealed is 152” and AW is higher at the operating point (704) 7/8”. Similar CFM at the same operating point (83).



8.4 at sealed is much higher. Performance is similar at 7/8” orifice, but 6.6 needs more amps to get there.

Because 8.4 sealed is higher, the air performance below 7/8” orifice will be higher and the difference is greater as the effective orifice gets smaller.


In conclusion, I would like to say that I am very happy that our competitor has another model to sell and promote to our industry. That's great. However, I just wanted to take the blinders off the unsuspecting users in our great industry and provide a little further education and information.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.
 

Anderson

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Aug 16, 2006
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#35
So ed
What is the total c.f.m...
on the jaguar
I'm guessing you havev2 vacs...
 

Ed Valentine

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#36
Anderson;

These figures are listed within the JAGUAR 8.4 web page. It is important to note that, here at Cross-American, it was our feeling and opinion that someone else do their testing. In other words, someone whom we could trust would do it correctly (variables unknown) and that person was James Morrow. Mr. Morrow worked at GM for well over 20 years in their quality control dept, if I recall, and really knows his stuff and the correct procedures. IMHO, I thought that his figures were a lot more accurate and "believable" than most any Manufacturers' statements and conclusions. As some know, they "could easily sugar-coat their conclusions" by masterful confusion!

IMHO, I think and beleive that the -----long reputation and "proven" performance of certain components, certain model machines and their results are the more truer performances well over playing the numbers game. Because, the real differences that separate us all, to the person cleaning the carpet, the particular HWE machine, to automobiles........ is something that makes any performance, or motor of much greater performance, is: Design.......period. For us here, when our users get such terrific short drying times at such distances, what more could one ask and why would there be any reason to sugar-coat numbers to help sell a machine? Let the machine sell itself through years of usage instead of over hype.

Anyways, hope this helps anwers your questions, and that is my opinion in proof.
 

John LaBarbera

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#37
[
I feel compelled, at this point, to bring the above statements and contentions back into reality. Keep in mind, please, that I did not want to rain on anyone's parade, either those once again statements from mytee,and johns promotional adjenda, or the supposed excitement from some of the readers who are always happy to see something new and possibly to their advantage.

Keep in mind that we, at Cross-American were using the Ametek 6.6 vacuum motors long before these were common place in our Industry. In fact, they were even critized by the mytee company when comparing to their (at the time) all new Chinese vacuum motors. We tested the single stage, dual stage in both the 6.6 and the 8.4 looking for higher performances. Most are aware that we progressed to a specific 8.4 industrial motor for a very good reason. Thus, the assumption made by our competitor must be clarified further with the actual truth below, proving that the 6.6 motor stated does not exceed the 8.4 motor below.

Please see the below evaluation of the motors.





122628 6.6 1 stage

717 PAW

7/8 AW 680

Sealed 115”

Max CFM 172

Max amps about 17.5. About 15.8 at 7/8”



122502 8.4 2 stage. High Sealed Version

710 PAW

7/8 AW 704

Sealed 152”

Max CFM 137

Max amps about 15. About 14.8 at 7/8”



Summary

The 6.6 was designed to run above 15 amps to get more performance. Max sealed is 115” and AW is lower at operating point (680) 7/8”. About 82 CFM at the same operating point.

The 8.4 runs below the 15 amp limit. Max sealed is 152” and AW is higher at the operating point (704) 7/8”. Similar CFM at the same operating point (83).



8.4 at sealed is much higher. Performance is similar at 7/8” orifice, but 6.6 needs more amps to get there.

Because 8.4 sealed is higher, the air performance below 7/8” orifice will be higher and the difference is greater as the effective orifice gets smaller.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I am very happy that our competitor has another model to sell and promote to our industry. That's great. However, I just wanted to take the blinders off the unsuspecting users in our great industry and provide a little further education and information.

Best to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.
i guess the only way to compete against the LX motor is to resort to lies and distortions.
When you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, Ed baffles them with BS.
 

Ed Valentine

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#38
Dear John;

Very sorry you feel that way resorting to that kind of (typical) response. Unnecessary at best, sir, especially when in good faith and respect to the people on this board, it was time to set the record straight based on facts.

For your information, and realizing how you promote your equipment, those facts and figures are those of the developers of the motors, Ametek; not from myself, and certainly not from your claims. Thus not necessary to claim that I am a liar.

I wish you well and hope you continue to promote your "new innovative" motors to help sell your equipment. After all, that helps the both of us!

Thanks again
 

Jim Davisson

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#39
I always wonder why when Jimsteam (James Morrow) is mentioned when talking about the 8.4 Jag, however he has stated on here many times that he runs two low amp rear boosters to increase the lift on his own machine (4 vacs total). Why not mention that part too?
 
Apr 27, 2018
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Real Name
Tim yeater
#40
I always wonder why when Jimsteam (James Morrow) is mentioned when talking about the 8.4 Jag, however he has stated on here many times that he runs two low amp rear boosters to increase the lift on his own machine (4 vacs total). Why not mention that part too?
I run Jaguar everyday never had to hook up a booster even thought about it it has plenty of suction after all aren't we trying to get carpet is clean as possible dry as fast as possible without spending too much time and money I ever have to hook up a booster I just unloading the machine it's less time and it runs 200 feet without issue