age old question URINE which is best?

Rick J

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Over the years , tried numerous methods, probably all of them!

Acid pretreat, vs. a higher ph soak as in OSR, PetZone which are 10?

Dwell, flush , flush , flush.

Both work.
Are there conditions that dictate one over the other.?

OSR/ PetZone , the peroxides are higher. in ph. But we all know they are effective.

But, it is recommended, as well, to pre-soak with an acid product. ( many out there) flush, flush flush, then apply something after. Oe of the cultures as in bacteria (bi0 charge, moleculer modifier etc. ) of just some deodorizer.

What about a peroxide liquid pre-soak that is acid, and stronger H2O2 than the OSRs. ?Would this be effective? Of course , assuming it is OK for the carpet being addressed.

What is the %H2O2 of the OSRs/PetZones when mixed strong as possible in hot water.
 

Ken Raddon

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Todd, that is the breifest message you have ever posted.
 

Ken Raddon

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I like presoaking with an acid i.e. Fab Set but I really like Neutralizer from Ultra Chem Labs.

I have it in a separate inline sprayer. I spray fab set everywhere just as if I am preapraying and hit the bad urine areas extra heavy. Just like Todd said to do on a previous post. Then I prespray normally with the prepsray dujor(sp). Then I clean normally. If an odor remains I apply something like Liquid Alive or Molecular Modifier or Hydrocide Extreme depending on what's on sale when I re-stock.
 
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Tom Forsythe

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Rick, your analysis is well done and your ideas merit some consideration.

There are a lot of variables in the use of sodium percarbonate (not recommended for wool). First, the percentage of peroxide is much lower than you would think. The alkalinity in the carbonate accelerates the peroxide activity much more than you would think. Generally 4 to 6 ounces is the recommended dosage of a gallon of ready to use oxidizing pet product and has proven to be a safe level for synthetic nylon carpet. Reactions even at these levels produce a lot of pressure. Going beyond this dosage may create safety hazards for the user and bleaching hazards for nylon.

H2O2 has a pH around 2.5. Most spotters which include H2O2 have a pH around 5.5. It does etch some stone at 2.5 pH, but not as severely as other acids. Alkaline salts from urine are ammonia based which would accelerate the H2O2 like the carbonate in powdered oxidizers. Adding too high of a level of peroxide to a pet stain could create a stronger reaction than you would want for dyes in nylon carpet. Generally, most of the liquid peroxide products in our market place go no higher than 8.0% for safety and shipping reasons. We have encouraged use of our Urine Stain Remover as a last step after all of the neutralization and rinsing has been completed. It is used as a pre-treat for minor urine spots, but has not been designed as the first treatment for gross contamination for the reasons outlined above.

Whenever peroxide is involved we all need to be careful in our testing beyond industry norms. Hydrogen peroxide is highly reactive and you may have noticed strong warnings that I have written on the boards when somebody even considers buying H2O2 at industrial strengths.
 

Rick J

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I like presoaking with an acid i.e. Fab Set but I really like Neutralizer from Ultra Chem Labs.

I have it in a separate inline sprayer. I spray fab set everywhere just as if I am preapraying and hit the bad urine areas extra heavy. Just like Todd said to do on a previous post. Then I prespray normally with the prepsray dujor(sp). Then I clean normally. If an odor remains I apply something like Liquid Alive or Molecular Modifier or Hydrocide Extreme depending on what's on sale when I re-stock.
I have done this in the past , quite a lot. I like Chemspec textile rinse. It is, or was labeled for this purpose. And it's smell is a little better, to me.
 

Rick J

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Rick, your analysis is well done and your ideas merit some consideration.

There are a lot of variables in the use of sodium percarbonate (not recommended for wool). First, the percentage of peroxide is much lower than you would think. The alkalinity in the carbonate accelerates the peroxide activity much more than you would think. Generally 4 to 6 ounces is the recommended dosage of a gallon of ready to use oxidizing pet product and has proven to be a safe level for synthetic nylon carpet. Reactions even at these levels produce a lot of pressure. Going beyond this dosage may create safety hazards for the user and bleaching hazards for nylon.

H2O2 has a pH around 2.5. Most spotters which include H2O2 have a pH around 5.5. It does etch some stone at 2.5 pH, but not as severely as other acids. Alkaline salts from urine are ammonia based which would accelerate the H2O2 like the carbonate in powdered oxidizers. Adding too high of a level of peroxide to a pet stain could create a stronger reaction than you would want for dyes in nylon carpet. Generally, most of the liquid peroxide products in our market place go no higher than 8.0% for safety and shipping reasons. We have encouraged use of our Urine Stain Remover as a last step after all of the neutralization and rinsing has been completed. It is used as a pre-treat for minor urine spots, but has not been designed as the first treatment for gross contamination for the reasons outlined above.

Whenever peroxide is involved we all need to be careful in our testing beyond industry norms. Hydrogen peroxide is highly reactive and you may have noticed strong warnings that I have written on the boards when somebody even considers buying H2O2 at industrial strengths.

I was just trying to determine it there are specific tipping points in situations that would dictate using one over the other.
Acid such as Urine pre treat or a textile rinse, followed by some sort of treatment

vs. an OSR or Pet Zone.

I really enjoyed giving show and tells with the carbonat stuff. I would mix some up in tight jars of some kind. Throw it out away from anything.
AND WAIT FOR IT!!!lol
 
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Tom Forsythe

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The type of carpet would be one determining factor. Polyesters are solution dyed so peroxide solutions are not needed for removing stains. Nylons can be stained by urine and show up readily in the lighter beige tones which would prompt someone to use a peroxide solution.

The level of odor would also be another factor. Acids neutralize alkaline salts with ammonia being a major consideration. Ammonia is around a pH of 12 and when its pH is lowered below 9, the ammonia odor goes away. When we manufacture our encapsulating products, a few of the raws have an ammonia odor. We add an acidic polymer to lower the pH and the ammonia odor is gone immediately after it is mixed. The peroxide solutions are around a pH of 10 and would not neutralize ammonia odors like acids. Odor encapsulants like Hydrocide do neutralize the ammonia odors along with other malodors so its use can do what acids.

Another factor can be ready to use gallon costs. Some products are more expensive than others to use.
 
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brentnorman

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I like presoaking with an acid i.e. Fab Set but I really like Neutralizer from Ultra Chem Labs.

I have it in a separate inline sprayer. I spray fab set everywhere just as if I am preapraying and hit the bad urine areas extra heavy. Just like Todd said to do on a previous post. Then I prespray normally with the prepsray dujor(sp). Then I clean normally. If an odor remains I apply something like Liquid Alive or Molecular Modifier or Hydrocide Extreme depending on what's on sale when I re-stock.
When you then clean normally do you use an acid rinse or alkaline?
 

ACP

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I chased this question for a while and tried a lot of different products, my conclusion is this:

dont want techs using 30% h2o2 because 1 splash in their eye and they are blind you dont get a second chance with that, according to my Dr.
and I know they wont consistently pull out eye protection

my other thought is if OSR mixed strong, dwells for a good amount of time, and rinsed out well at very high temps doesnt do it then the carpet should really be replaced and its likely something I dont really want to suck into our equipment at that point.

If some smell still remains after that then something like molecular modifier but thats very rare

The tough one is the really small dogs/cats that basically ruin the dyes in the carpet because their tiny bladder is so concentrated
 
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Mr. Esteamy

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We mix bio modifier extreme with fiber rinse 50/50 and spray or soak then water claw. It's gets incredible results without having to treat and flush multiple times with multiple products. I know your not suppose to mix acid with enzymes and all that noise. But at some point we started experimenting and started getting better and better results.
 

Chris Henry

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The type of carpet would be one determining factor. Polyesters are solution dyed so peroxide solutions are not needed for removing stains. Nylons can be stained by urine and show up readily in the lighter beige tones which would prompt someone to use a peroxide solution.

The level of odor would also be another factor. Acids neutralize alkaline salts with ammonia being a major consideration. Ammonia is around a pH of 12 and when its pH is lowered below 9, the ammonia odor goes away. When we manufacture our encapsulating products, a few of the raws have an ammonia odor. We add an acidic polymer to lower the pH and the ammonia odor is gone immediately after it is mixed. The peroxide solutions are around a pH of 10 and would not neutralize ammonia odors like acids. Odor encapsulants like Hydrocide do neutralize the ammonia odors along with other malodors so its use can do what acids.

Another factor can be ready to use gallon costs. Some products are more expensive than others to use.
Great info on the ability to control odor by adjusting pH.
When I come across urine laden floor coverings, I usually prespray with Bio-Break and then rinse with Flex Ice. If any stain is still present I follow with a topical application of liquid peroxide.
Is this an effective approach in your opinion or do you suggest using a different set of products?
@Tom Forsythe
 

Ken Raddon

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I never use acid rinses. Tried them didn't need them quit using them.
 

PROSTEAM22

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That's all well and good about urine, but what about just over all pet odor? Just wide spread, nasty smelling, rank dog odors. On these jobs where there is no identifiable source what are you doing?
 

rob allen

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That's all well and good about urine, but what about just over all pet odor? Just wide spread, nasty smelling, rank dog odors. On these jobs where there is no identifiable source what are you doing?
This is usually a dog hair and oil issue.
 

ACP

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We mix bio modifier extreme with fiber rinse 50/50 and spray or soak then water claw. It's gets incredible results without having to treat and flush multiple times with multiple products. I know your not suppose to mix acid with enzymes and all that noise. But at some point we started experimenting and started getting better and better results.
I like that idea, definitely going to give that a try.
 

Tom Forsythe

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I know we all like saving steps, but sometimes they are counter productive. Mixing a bacteria with an acid is counterproductive as it neutralizes the bacteria. Pretreat with the acid, flush with water claw (most important step for subsurface contamination), do normal cleaning (Bio Break pre-spray with Flex Ice rinse is good along with other combinations) which should deal with most non urine dog odors, post spray problem spots with a bacteria (getting to pad level is best). Using acid and bacteria separately will give you better results.

I am not recommending an acid rinse at 1 to 320, but an acid pre-treatment at 1 to 5 dilution. This is acidic enough to drop the pH of ammonia salts from 12 to 9 pH neutralizing the odor. If sales is a valid poll then use of acid rinses over alkaline rinses is 6 to 4 for our customers. Of course, we do not know how many just rinse with water.
 

PROSTEAM22

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This is usually a dog hair and oil issue.
Correct. But what's the go to method for removal?Clearly vacuum thoroughly. I've always gone heavy enzyme w solvent and thoroughly rinse. But there are some jobs that it just lingers. Used ozone. Put bio modifier down and let it sit for 2 days and went back to rinse. Still the odor was there. I never want to tell someone there's nothing I can do.
 

rob allen

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Correct. But what's the go to method for removal?Clearly vacuum thoroughly. I've always gone heavy enzyme w solvent and thoroughly rinse. But there are some jobs that it just lingers. Used ozone. Put bio modifier down and let it sit for 2 days and went back to rinse. Still the odor was there. I never want to tell someone there's nothing I can do.
Lets ask @Tom Forsythe.
 

M4sT3R T3CH

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Pros choice has a great website. Have several videos on pet decontamination