Adding an OP

U. S. Vet.

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Adding another tool to the tool box is never a bad thing The Eco17 is a good machine, I have the orbot vibe, a 15inch CRB a challenger OP a 175 and even the little oreck orbital in addition to my TM.
VLM cleaning has been around for a long time and is/has been growing in popularity for awhile now regardless of what we think.
One can choose to learn it and join in or not, the choice is ours to make individually.
I chose to join in on VLM cleaning and have done various methods and variations of it
When done right both HWE and VLM work, we come across different situations all the time
Personally I like to have more options other then just HWE everything all the time.
Having the equipment I have allows me to get creative sometimes, i can mix and match
Sometimes after doing HWE i'll roll in my vibe or challenger and throw a microfiber or cotton pad and go over everything again real quick, this will pull more moisture and soil out and improve overall appearance some as well as allow faster dry times.
Sometimes I'll VLM with the CRB then use the vibe or challenger to finish up
Sometimes i'll VLM with the CRB then use the TM for a quick rinse and extract..The variations of what i can do are many
I can accommodate what ever the customer wants.
I have one VLM only cleaner in my area that i know of, he gets a good amount of work and i have had people call me and ask if I do low moisture cleaning, If i say no sorry i don't do that and that's what they want then that's a job i would normally lose
but i don't as i can say yes i do that as well as HWE
Once at the customers home ( and i'm only there because i said i do VLM) and i see the carpet and the condition i can then explain the methods without getting to technical and recommend what i think is best for them at that time. 80% of the time they go for HWE the other 20% get some form of VLM
One thing i always try not to do is knock any method, I can't as i do them all.
The VLM only cleaner in my area trashes HWE all the time, he has to, he has no choice i guess.
Whats he suppose to do tell his customers that HWE is actually better but i couldn't afford to by a TM so i do it this way instead
You said :

“i have had people call me and ask if I do low moisture cleaning, If i say no sorry i don't do that and that's what they want then that's a job i would normally lose”

The customers are asking for “low moisture“ cleaning • not VLM cleaning.

• • • answer : yes • we provide the absolute best of both worlds. Hot Water Extraction & low moisture.
• • then make darn sure you leave the client’s job as dry
as VLM.

• • if that’s not what almost always happens anyway
( it’s kinda why I’m lookin at new cuffs ), then it might be too wet <—— bad for urine / brown-yellow out / wicking / etc. , most importantly, PO’d clients.

Another huge advantage to this “segway“ answer is that you get to trash the VLM “trash talker“ • • • indirectly & independent of having to mention anyone in particular • • • you get to explain the deficiencies of • ONLY • throwing sawdust down then hoping to get a good % out before having to proclaim the rest will “help” you • • •
“keep cleaning every time you vacuum”

TM’s should produce t results necessary to achieve close results to VLM ( even if additional steps like post CRB <——- ( good idea anyway ), are required ).
 

U. S. Vet.

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You said :

“i have had people call me and ask if I do low moisture cleaning, If i say no sorry i don't do that and that's what they want then that's a job i would normally lose”

The customers are asking for “low moisture“ cleaning • not VLM cleaning.

• • • answer : yes • we provide the absolute best of both worlds. Hot Water Extraction & low moisture.
• • then make darn sure you leave the client’s job as dry
as VLM.

• • if that’s not what almost always happens anyway
( it’s kinda why I’m lookin at new cuffs ), then it might be too wet <—— bad for urine / brown-yellow out / wicking / etc. , most importantly, PO’d clients.

Another huge advantage to this “segway“ answer is that you get to trash the VLM “trash talker“ • • • indirectly & independent of having to mention anyone in particular • • • you get to explain the deficiencies of • ONLY • throwing sawdust down then hoping to get a good % out before having to proclaim the rest will “help” you • • •
“keep cleaning every time you vacuum”

TM’s should produce t results necessary to achieve close results to VLM ( even if additional steps like post CRB <——- ( good idea anyway ), are required ).
All that having been said, I completely understand the advantages of VLM & use it myself several times a year.

Someone has correctly stated • eventually, one must
HWE.
 

kevinj6121

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your missing the point. Its not a warranty issue.

Look, the people that MAKE carpet have done all the testing of all the methods and know how they all work. THEY have made the determination that HWE works best. In fact THEY are so convinced that they REQUIRE HWE to maintain their products.

So I dont give a rats *ss about warrantys. Who knows carpet inside out and upside down. The people that MAKE it. Wouldnt it be prudent to follow what they say?

And watch all the posts about VLM. They start out with *Im tired of dragging hoses* or *Ive had it with my TM* so just because its faster or they dont like HWE (or not doing it correctly) they have determined whats best for the carpet.

Yes you can *whip out* carpet with VLM but does it produce the best results let alone keep the carpet clean longer? Nada.

VLM as a maintenance method for commercial installations of which it was designed, yes.
1st i'll clear this up, I didn't say that you don't give a rats *ss about warrantees. I don't know if you insinuated that i did or not,
If you took it that way then my apologies as that was not my intention.
But ok lets take warrantees out of this, toss it aside
Yeah i get it they are the ones who make the stuff therefore they should know best how to clean it
But they are not the ones out there on a daily basis cleaning it either
I like HWE otherwise i wouldn't have bought a brand new TM last year and i also believe that it is the method that removes the most soil as well
But it has to be done correctly and i emphasize "correctly"
How many times have you been to a new customer who is worried about dry time cause the last HWE guy left it to wet and it took forever to dry and spots came back etc...
I run into that all the time, i can't be the only one

As far as VLM goes, lets face it, it's been around awhile now and there are different ways and machines used to do it as well
The chemicals used to do it have been getting better and better too
HWE is a good way to clean carpet but it is not the only way and will never be the only way, the industry will never ever be HWE only and that's that, take it or leave it.

I've accepted the fact that VLM is here to stay and I don't think its going to go away anytime soon

VLM cleaning does work and works well if done properly, I can say this because i do it as well HWE
The real argument people have is weather or not it can remove as much soil as HWE some will say yes some will say no You can make a carpet look just as good with VLM as with HWE

Now i will say this, as far as VLM goes for residential I'm not a fan of just a straight encap using a CRB only wherein you spray down your encap juice then run the CRB and that's it

Does it make the carpet look clean, yes it does, i've done it
Did you actually remove any soil from the customers carpet, no you didn't
But that's not how it was designed to work, all the soil becomes encapsulated in the chem then when dry it is vacuumed out

But to me if a customer calls you into their home to clean the carpet they expect you to not only make it look clean but to remove the soil as well and not leave it there for them to vacuum out later
Now if you follow up your CRB cleaning using a 175 rotary or some good OP machine with an absorbent cotton pad on it then you are removing soil, I mean its obvious, just look at the pad, how did it get so dirty, where did all that come from, it obviously came from the carpet.
You just can't keep using the same pad once it is dirty, you have to flip it to the other clean side then change to another one when other side is dirty
 

kevinj6121

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You said :

“i have had people call me and ask if I do low moisture cleaning, If i say no sorry i don't do that and that's what they want then that's a job i would normally lose”

The customers are asking for “low moisture“ cleaning • not VLM cleaning.

• • • answer : yes • we provide the absolute best of both worlds. Hot Water Extraction & low moisture.
• • then make darn sure you leave the client’s job as dry
as VLM.

• • if that’s not what almost always happens anyway
( it’s kinda why I’m lookin at new cuffs ), then it might be too wet <—— bad for urine / brown-yellow out / wicking / etc. , most importantly, PO’d clients.

Another huge advantage to this “segway“ answer is that you get to trash the VLM “trash talker“ • • • indirectly & independent of having to mention anyone in particular • • • you get to explain the deficiencies of • ONLY • throwing sawdust down then hoping to get a good % out before having to proclaim the rest will “help” you • • •
“keep cleaning every time you vacuum”

TM’s should produce t results necessary to achieve close results to VLM ( even if additional steps like post CRB <——- ( good idea anyway ), are required ).
When a customer is asking for "low moisture" cleaning i believe they are asking for VLM cleaning because that is truly "low moisture"
To me, in my opinion anyway. VLM is a category
as there are different machines and methods used to do it as well as the chems used are different as well, normal HWE pre sprays do not have the polymers in them like the encap chems do.
You have the Cimex machines, The CRB and the OP machines and some use a 175 rotary for VLM cleaning
And lets face it, you use way less water for any form of VLM cleaning then you would with HWE. Hence "Low Moisture"

HWE is not considered a low moisture cleaning process, now i could tell the customer not to worry, when i'm done your carpets will be close to as dry as with VLM (low moisture)

But bottom line HWE and VLM are not the same
 

U. S. Vet.

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Sanis Sanis
You said :

“i have had people call me and ask if I do low moisture cleaning, If i say no sorry i don't do that and that's what they want then that's a job i would normally lose”

The customers are asking for “low moisture“ cleaning • not VLM cleaning.

• • • answer : yes • we provide the absolute best of both worlds. Hot Water Extraction & low moisture.
• • then make darn sure you leave the client’s job as dry
as VLM.

• • if that’s not what almost always happens anyway
( it’s kinda why I’m lookin at new cuffs ), then it might be too wet <—— bad for urine / brown-yellow out / wicking / etc. , most importantly, PO’d clients.

Another huge advantage to this “segway“ answer is that you get to trash the VLM “trash talker“ • • • indirectly & independent of having to mention anyone in particular • • • you get to explain the deficiencies of • ONLY • throwing sawdust down then hoping to get a good % out before having to proclaim the rest will “help” you • • •
“keep cleaning every time you vacuum”

TM’s should produce t results necessary to achieve close results to VLM ( even if additional steps like post CRB <——- ( good idea anyway ), are required ).
This last comment refers only to dry times <—— as far as • “achieving VLM results“ • only dry time comparisons • not cleaning results • no comparo there.
 

U. S. Vet.

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When a customer is asking for "low moisture" cleaning i believe they are asking for VLM cleaning because that is truly "low moisture"
To me, in my opinion anyway. VLM is a category
as there are different machines and methods used to do it as well as the chems used are different as well, normal HWE pre sprays do not have the polymers in them like the encap chems do.
You have the Cimex machines, The CRB and the OP machines and some use a 175 rotary for VLM cleaning
And lets face it, you use way less water for any form of VLM cleaning then you would with HWE. Hence "Low Moisture"

HWE is not considered a low moisture cleaning process, now i could tell the customer not to worry, when i'm done your carpets will be close to as dry as with VLM (low moisture)

But bottom line HWE and VLM are not the same
Agree / Disagree • not opinion - ( maybe refer to mama fen for confirmation ), presprays are formulated to separate soil / stain / other deposits, from surfaces of varying types. HWE is beyond any doubt the most effective method of cleaning these surfaces • please consider the less experienced CC’rs. VLM is an effective / practical / convenient way to clean/ maintain surfaces.

HWE IS A SUPERIOR FORM OF CLEANING • always will be.

HWE works • always • everywhere - if anything is gonna get-r-dun
 

U. S. Vet.

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Agree / Disagree • not opinion - ( maybe refer to mama fen for confirmation ), presprays are formulated to separate soil / stain / other deposits, from surfaces of varying types. HWE is beyond any doubt the most effective method of cleaning these surfaces • please consider the less experienced CC’rs. VLM is an effective / practical / convenient way to clean/ maintain surfaces.

HWE IS A SUPERIOR FORM OF CLEANING • always will be.

HWE works • always • everywhere - if anything is gonna get-r-dun
The very bottom line is • & the reason why I can say - I never liked t idea that you’re throwing sawdust down and then leaving some % behind • with all those “effective“ chems you keep exclaiming about from the rafters.

Bottom-bottom line - lol ;

No rinsee <——-> No goodee
 

U. S. Vet.

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The very bottom line is • & the reason why I can say - I never liked t idea that you’re throwing sawdust down and then leaving some % behind • with all those “effective“ chems you keep exclaiming about from the rafters.

Bottom-bottom line - lol ;

No rinsee <——-> No goodee
Also • don’t confuse lesser cleaning where lesser cleaning is needed with not wanting to use VLM • on t contrary • I’ll vacuum only under a sofa / other furniture • if that’s all we need. ACP said he only VLM’s upstairs most times • I’d b cool w that or just HWE w o prespray or vacuum. Only a pro decides what / where / when.

That honestly having been said • I stand strong on avoiding VLM unless otherwise impractical in too many ways • NOT having to do w YOUR OWN inconvenience
• • • • unless you’re my good buddy George • and you’re a retired salty - lol <——> you know I luv ya !
 
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kevinj6121

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Agree / Disagree • not opinion - ( maybe refer to mama fen for confirmation ), presprays are formulated to separate soil / stain / other deposits, from surfaces of varying types. HWE is beyond any doubt the most effective method of cleaning these surfaces • please consider the less experienced CC’rs. VLM is an effective / practical / convenient way to clean/ maintain surfaces.

HWE IS A SUPERIOR FORM OF CLEANING • always will be.

HWE works • always • everywhere - if anything is gonna get-r-dun
I do agree HWE is the best method that will remove the most soil, after all, I did just buy a brand new TM last year

As far as pre sprays go aren't they all formulated to separate soil / stain / other deposits from carpet,, weather it be an encap chem or HWE pre spray

I will add that the sawdust looking dry compound stuff, that's one road i won't ever go down, not a fan of that stuff at all
 

U. S. Vet.

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The medium is not wholly the drawback to this or any cleaning method void of • • • flushing

Flushing is as important as any other piece of the cleaning pie. ( consider flushing the 5th part of what should be a 5 not 4 part “cleaning pie”),
 
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mrotto

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I hwe this carpet last June and it never looked this good, chair mat marks used to be my worst enemy, the eco 17 tore right through them!
ok, heres my point. I bet that you didnt use your Eco 17 to agitate when you used your TM. Its your Eco 17 that got those results, not the VLM. Like you even said The Eco 17 tore right through them.

So your assuming your getting better results with VLM because the process worked better, when in fact if you would have used proper agitation with the right brushes/pad you would have gotten similar or better results with HWE.
 
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Timothyscarpet

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ok, heres my point. I bet that you didnt use your Eco 17 to agitate when you used your TM. Its your Eco 17 that got those results, not the VLM. Like you even said The Eco 17 tore right through them.

So your assuming your getting better results with VLM because the process worked better, when in fact if you would have used proper agitation with the right brushes/pad you would have gotten similar or better results with HWE.
I'd argue it's a package deal, cut the chemistry out of any process and you have nothing. So the VLM process ....well the process I was using, was first vac, then prespray, then agitate/rinse using the OP machine, whats different about that compared to the HWE process? My agitation when I HWE was with a CRB and the rinse water was hotter and I used more of it. How can you say that the VLM process didn't get those results? So is it the HWE process that gets results or your TM? And in this instance I went into the job knowing I wanted to pad cap only and the results appeared better and I didn't unload any hoses, so IMO I achieved better results in less time with less effort. By using the VLM process
 
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george8585

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Release it Punch prespray, rinsing with either ds2 or hydrox, their line up is stellar from what I've tried, and yes micro fiber scrub bonnet.
That's what I use for all commercial carpet. Punch for prespray with fiber pad scrub, if needed, and then DS2 in my OP with microfiber scrub/extraction.. Hydrox good for coffee and ice melt issues.


Bonnet Pro or TMF encaps for residential.
 

kevinj6121

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ok, heres my point. I bet that you didnt use your Eco 17 to agitate when you used your TM. Its your Eco 17 that got those results, not the VLM. Like you even said The Eco 17 tore right through them.

So your assuming your getting better results with VLM because the process worked better, when in fact if you would have used proper agitation with the right brushes/pad you would have gotten similar or better results with HWE.
So just to be clear, If timothyscarpet only used his ECO 17 along with encap chems..No TM or portable extractor...Well then that is a VLM process that got him those results

We all know VLM stands for "very low moisture"
TM'S are not used for VLM
Who starts a VLM business and buys a TM?

To be fair I see what your saying, he could have used a regular HWE pre spray, followed with some form of mechanical agitation, then his TM for rinse and extract to achieve similar or better results
But had he done that then that would be a HWE cleaning
He used no TM and he used encap chems therefore it was a VLM cleaning

Chances of wick back are greatly reduced with a VLM process if for nothing else for the simple fact that your using a lot less water and the carpets dry a lot faster
 
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Timothyscarpet

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ok, heres my point. I bet that you didnt use your Eco 17 to agitate when you used your TM. Its your Eco 17 that got those results, not the VLM. Like you even said The Eco 17 tore right through them.

So your assuming your getting better results with VLM because the process worked better, when in fact if you would have used proper agitation with the right brushes/pad you would have gotten similar or better results with HWE.
Lets assume results are being measured by over all
So just to be clear, If timothyscarpet only used his ECO 17 along with encap chems..No TM or portable extractor...Well then that is a VLM process that got him those results

We all know VLM stands for "very low moisture"
TM'S are not used for VLM
Who starts a VLM business and buys a TM?

To be fair I see what your saying, he could have used a regular HWE pre spray, followed with some form of mechanical agitation, then his TM for rinse and extract to achieve similar or better results
But had he done that then that would be a HWE cleaning
He used no TM and he used encap chems therefore it was a VLM cleaning

Chances of wick back are greatly reduced with a VLM process if for nothing else for the simple fact that your using a lot less water and the carpets dry a lot faster
I'm testing this theory as I type this, encap presprays and rinses are designed to give results based on that method. I'm cleaning a large church room, prespraying with Uktrapac Extreme formulated to be.used as a hwe Chem, agitating with eco 17 and a red pad, rinsing with procyon powder plus....so I'm actually not seeing the wow results UNTIL I rinse with hwe. Where as with my VLM process I saw the results when I rinsed with the release it product.
 

kevinj6121

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Lets assume results are being measured by over all

I'm testing this theory as I type this, encap presprays and rinses are designed to give results based on that method. I'm cleaning a large church room, prespraying with Uktrapac Extreme formulated to be.used as a hwe Chem, agitating with eco 17 and a red pad, rinsing with procyon powder plus....so I'm actually not seeing the wow results UNTIL I rinse with hwe. Where as with my VLM process I saw the results when I rinsed with the release it product.
That would be correct. If i'm gonna VLM a job i'll always use a VLM chem only
On the other hand i will do a HWE job with a VLM chem, only i wouldn't use my Orbot vibe, i'd pre spray then run my CRB then rinse and extract with my TM
 
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Timothyscarpet

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That would be correct. If i'm gonna VLM a job i'll always use a VLM chem only
On the other hand i will do a HWE job with a VLM chem, only i wouldn't use my Orbot vibe, i'd pre spray then run my CRB then rinse and extract with my TM
The eco 17 is pretty awesome. It has an on board spray gun only option so I can mix 3 gal of rtu at a time plug it in, prespray, then throw a pad on and agitate all with 1 machine.
 
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