Confirmed bleeder/ Help Lisa...Scott ??

Poor puppy! And no I'm not talking about you Rob.

What you really seek to asvoid is not so much loss of color dye from the yarns but you don't want that dye to settle somewhere else on the rug where it doesn't belong.

I have seen many rugs that bleed or crock cleaned in a pit with RUNNINB water. A sump pump at one corner or the low end of a slanetd pit and a discharge at the opposite corner can work, but continuously running fresh water in and dirty water out works even better.

Bridgepoint's Dye-Loc works to rpevent dyes from fastening onto a surface where the Dye-Loc has been applied. The color may still come off but it will stay in the water and not go to some other portion of the rug.

Add 3 ounces of Dye-Loc per gallon of water. Prespray the rug and allow a few minutes for the Dye-Loc to penetrate. The go ahead and clean.

Need a photo - what color bled? Did it bleed when testing EVERYWHERE or ONLY where pet urine was?

Did it test as a bleeder with:
hot water?
your cleaning solution?
your dye stabilizing solution? (we use acetic acid 5%)

If the bleed results were (1) yes, (2) no, and (3) no. Then yes you can immerse the piece. If the results were (1) yes, (2) yes - SLIGHTLY, and (3) no, then change the solution to NEUTRAL or ACIDIC pH - the alkalinity may be creating more migration. ALSO - be sure you are using luekwarm - not HOT - water to clean. Or cold water.

Here's the bigger issue - PET URINE CREATES BLEEDING IN RUG ACID DYES. This is why.

Pet urine when it's "fresh" (sounds clean, huh?) it's acid pH. Goes on warm/hot and acid, and with most rug dyes they are acid pH, so the urine penetrated the fibers and essentially "re-dyes" the fibers with a nice urea tone of yellow. Almost an art!

When the pet urine sits there long - it becomes ALKALINE pH. The longer it sits, the more the pH affects the acidic bond between the dye molecules and the fibers. You will literally see the dye "dissolve" in these areas and release when cleaned.

I have seen rugs that would NEVER bleed with hot water - like a 1920s American Sarouk with those burgundy dyes, bleed like a stuck pig when it's had pet urine all over it. NOTHING you can do will prevent this dye migration - it's already been removed from the fibers and will release when wet, even if you stabilize it with acetic acid. That water will run red.

So ... in this case .... you need to determine is it bleeding on your because it's just a bleeder, or because or the pet urine, or because the solution you want to use is too high pH. Or ... if the rug DRY CROCKS - it could be an after-market dyeing (or ink) process applied to the rug and so it is NOT cleanable with any moisture at all.

These are the questions and scenarios to consider. Please post some photos. Do a dye test on the BACK of the rug also, so what happens.

If you do NOT know how to do a dye test - pop over to www.therugchick.com and find the link to the video where I walk through how to do it (on Viddler ... I think it's the 2nd post).

Hope that helps...
Lisa

P.S. If any of your are in Tampa, Atlanta, Seattle, Denver, or Vegas - I am doing some rug workshops as part of Piranha's Rugs and Restoration Roadshow events - I'm giving out some valuable tips and takeaways for textiles, both in cleaning and restoration scenarios. Some locations are limited to 50, some at 75, details at www.rugsandrestorationroadshow.com. Rugs is an area where there are many variables - and you need to learn how to avoid the most common rug disasters. I don't know how many of you were aware of pet urine and rug dyes as I've laid out above ... I find that most are not, and they test an unaffected area, it's colorfast, and then they can't understand why the rug bled on them. This is one of the main culprits - pet urine. Hope it helps some of you to get WAIVERS whenever pets are involved with rugs.

Lisa you are a wealth of knowledge! I've learned A LOT from your posts! Thank You!

Joe

You're welcome Joe - come to my show! (It rhymed!!!)

I was just in Tennessee last week to take ASD at Dri-Eaz ... and I'll be in Atlanta on the 7th for our Rugs and Restoration show - if you can make it, come on down. Promise you you'll learn a TON - and Bruce puts on a great show at Truckmount Cleaning Solutions.


Lisa

P.S. Just put up a new post on my RUg Chick blog that I think you'll enjoy - over at www.therugchick.com. Good technical content over there. I just gave advice to a cleaner on de-bleeding a rug with black dye bleed ... when the photos come my way I'll post those and the steps as well.

You never mentioned any odors or stains.

Whats the customers main complaint , staining or odor?

So you see no staining and detect little or no odor. If so i would start with a good vacuum followed with a solvent type pre spray and atleast 15 minutes dwell time then vacuum once more followed with a dry solvent cleaner by overspraying then vacuming overspray and vacuum atleast 2 times.

Cleaning the back then the front would assure quality clean. And yes i would charge more , wet clean .75 to 1.50 per sq ft dry clean 1.50 to 3.00 sq ft.

Okay - thanks for the photos.

Going back to the DYE TEST:
- Transfer from HOT WATER? (If yes - a lot or a little?)
- Transfer from your SOLUTION? (If yes - a lot or a little?)
- Transfer from 4-5% ACETIC ACID? (If yes - you CANNOT clean it.)

Testing with HOT to see if there is any chance at all that it will bleed during cleaning - because you will clean with lukewarm or cool water.

If the transfer is SLIGHT with your solution - but NONE with the acetic acid, then you can follow this process:

1) Dust rug.
2) Soak in ACETIC ACID (you can buy white vinegar - which is 6% AA - and mix it 60/40 vinegar to water - and that'll get you near 4%-5%)
3) Squeegee/roller out the urine (the acid will help the urine salts release from the rug and the water will run yellow)
4) Shampoo as usual
5) Rinse suds out AND acid rinse AND flush some with water as well (so it doesn't smell like vinegar) - the acid helps remove the suds more (which is why women rinse their hair with vinegar at times) and it also leaves the pH during dry time at the acid side .... if a rug is going to bleed on you, it will be right away, or during the dry time - dry rugs face down on clean surface and if any migration does happen, it will wick to the BACK side

Okay ... that said .... if this rug has had MULTIPLE pet urine stains, it may bleed on you regardless of the acid - and regardless of any other dye stabilizing agent. Get a waiver. Or if that is not an option - then you will need to SURFACE clean this rug with a portable. I'd do both sides, I'd use acid as a prespray and a rinsing agent, I'd use Masterblend Anti-Allergen Deoderizer as the odor-removing product.

To truly remove the SOURCE - it needs to be washed - not surface cleaned - because the urine will be in those interior cotton warps and wefts. But - if you bleed the rug, it will be yours to buy and own.

If your DYE TESTS show slight migration ... keep your process on the acid side of the pH scale - and wash quickly. We are one of the few plants who wet wash 100% silk Hereke and Qum rugs ... and that's because we can immerse in acetic acid, wash quickly, rinse in acetic, and get that puppy through the wringer and get it all done in under 15 minutes. Most cleaners do not have that capability .... so you need to know, can you pick up the pace when a bleeder requires it.

Rob - I hope you can make one of my Rugs and Restoration events ... I think you'd really dig it.

Post me the dye test results. On BOTH of the rugs. What you used for the test - how you used it (remember to GRIN OPEN the fibers and not just test the top of the fibers - and test FRONT side and BACK) - and how much transferred on the white towel.

Thanks buddy ... and thanks for the good thread - I think a lot of people will get value from this conversation (as well as many others that you guys start, this is really a good forum)

Lisa

http://www.therugchick.com

Tampa - Aug 4
Atlanta - Aug 7

Those are the closest, and soonest ... we will be in Vegas Sept 8 also in case you are out west.

http://www.rugsandrestorationroadshow.com

This was a solid thread - thanks for the question ... I think I'm going to share this on the Rug Chick blog.

Lisa

I will make sure my bodyguards don't kick you out. You know how they get....


Lisa

Get a RELEASE from the client that the rug WILL bleed from the pet urine, and so there is a chance the fringe may turn pink and migration in the specific areas the urine has been.

Have you SOAKED a rug before Rob? If the rug smells AWFUL - you may need to soak it completely with acetic acid to help remove the urine salts within the foundation - soak it in acid, use a roller or squeegee to flush the urine out, pump out the dirty yellow water, shampoo, rinse with acid and then water to help keep it from smelling like vinegar, and extract.

If the odor is still BAD - add a deoderizing soak to the process (I like Masterblend's Anti-Allergen Deodorizer - it doesn't have a fragrance like the skunk remover one does).

Because this IS a bleeder, and it does have pet urine which also creates bleeding problems, you are going to have to watch to see if the water is running pink on you.

Here's the situation with rug stabilizing agents like acetic acid - you soak the rug with it first so it soaks into the fiber dye sites, and if dye migrates you keep flushing the rug and PUSHING the dye off and away from the rug. It will not redeposit on the neighboring fibers full of the acid IF you can move it with a squeegee or roller.

I once washed two new super bleeder Afghan red rugs side by side in a workshop I taught, and we treated one with acetic acid, and the other with nothing. Both had RED water during cleaning ... but the acid one at the end still had all the white areas visible when dry - while the untreated one was all pink when done.

The fringes still get a hue of the dye because it's cotton.

So you have to have lots of acid handy (for stabilizing and rinsing) and be prepared to squeegee and flush this rug out well.

After extraction ... I would dry the rug face down so that if there is any migration during the dry time it wicks to the BACK of the rug. Drying the rug flat will also keep the fringes from turning very red during dry time if hanging. If hanging is the only option - then make it hang at a slight angle and clamp a towel at the lowest corner so that the moisture pools down to that one corner and any migrating dye will be concentrated on that corner predominantly instead of all throughout the fringe if you were to hang it perfectly evenly.

Rob - you are going to have migration during the cleaning - so just be prepared - and get the acknowledgement from the client that to remove the odor you MUST soak the rug ... but because of the pet damage the dyes in these areas WILL bleed, and that the dyes to begin with are not completely colorfast.

If you have a rug plant near you with a wringer or revolution spinner - then take it there ... they can soak it and do a much quicker cleaning than you will be able to with a pit, and there will be much less risk.

If you have no plant to use and the client is too paranoid to let you give this a try, then you need to surface clean it. I'd do the back of the rug first (that cotton foundation is where the urine is concentrated. If you know the EXACT spots, pour vinegar on them and rinse the urine out with a water claw. This way you are not soaking the entire rug. Then use the deodorizer product on the back to clean and rinse/extract (with acid again because it will help remove the urine AND stabilize the dyes) - then flip over and wash the front same steps.

Use an Airpath to dry this puppy fast - it will smell bad until it is completely 100% dry - then you can decide do you need to do the whole thing over again.

If you are pit washing, the fringe will turn pink - so post photos and I can give you some color correction steps ... if you are surface cleaning, then you can just wash the fringe with an all fiber shampoo and rinse/extract. I'd use an acid rinse to keep it from yellowing.

I am not a big fan of surface cleaning (a bath always cleans rugs better) ... but when you have a pit, immersion cleaning with low-tech tools can take much longer, and with migration risks you increase your likelihood of creating damage. You need to be able to pump out dirty water quickly, get in fresh, be able to rinse and extract well, and then get that rug dry. A rug this size, this is going to be a big job to get done .... so I hope those ideas help you decide how to handle it.

the rug chick,
Lisa

P.S. For everyone else reading ... you MUST be skilled in FIBER testing, DYE testing, CONSTRUCTION knowledge, PRE-INSPECTION techniques before you do anything with rugs. Most damage claims I evaluate from others come from their lack of knowing what fiber they were cleaning ... or that the dyes were not colorfast ... or that the construction was poor .... or that there were pre-exisitng problems they did not catch first. Put in the time to learn that before you go ahead with immersing a rug for cleaning ... and if you have a good rug plant in your city, why not subcontract, make money on it without having to do the work, and keep yourself safe?

Rob - let me know what questions you have.

http://www.therugchick.com

By the way ... it is very ODD that the hot water showed no transfer, while the shampoo did ... is it possible you tested the shampoo in a urine affected area? And was that solution HOT or just normal?

Lisa

Some nice diagnostic procedures there Lisa.

Thanks Mike, and others who've chimed in on this thread ... now let's hope Rob doesn't buy this rug and **** me for it. LOL!

I've enjoyed meeting several of you at the recent Tampa and Atlanta rugs and restoration events and have realized that a half day or rug talk and tips is not going to cut it ... so I'm creating some follow-up photos and presentations to help keep cleaners from getting into the most common traps in rug cleaning. I am also making plans for some more intensive events to give you some practical start to finish training which is desperately needed in this biz.

I'll post my plans here for all of you - or at least those of you who are interested. If you are in a town with a GREAT rug plant, I'd like to choose some cities where we can team up with a plant to combine classroom with plant cleaning. If you have one in your town - please email me at lisa@joepolish.com ... I am doing one day events in Denver next week and Seattle the week after, then Vegas ... but for these intensives, I'm looking for a few good cities to visit - email me privately and I'll map out a plan of attack to hopefully help some of you in doing your rug cleaning better - and teach you how to get more of it.

ROB - if you have any trouble, call my mobile - if you don't have it then email me and I'll give it to you (if I post it I may get crank calls ... I know you guys ... )

Lisa

www.therugchick.com
www.rugsandrestoration.com