Thread: Best PSI

Originally Posted by The Flow King

Wes- Before I buy you dinner how do you do volume testing........Mike

Wes, do you have a Morton's steak hose near you? If you do, there is in one in Louisville where Mike could purchase you a gift card Sounds like you built a great system.

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Hey Mike,

I measure my volume in oz when doing my tests. However, I did use your gallon container and funnel recommendation. A full gallon with another 3rd or so left over.

Basically I drop the wand into a 5 gal bucket. Set the psi, in this case at 450, then key the trigger for 60 sec. It will easily do the 1.3 gpm that I've metioned. I can even post a vid if you would like. Even if I use your wieght formula it all adds up. If there's another way you would like me to do it just let me know.

When I first thought about building the machine like this, even my supplier didn't think it was possible. With several phone calls to Shaun at Pumptec. This is what I ended up with.

Here's a break down on the pump.

It's a 205 series Pumptec pump. The pump it's self is capible of 1000 psi, but you need to regulate it so you don't blow your motor. The motor that is normally sold with this pump is the 1/3 HP M4. The pump head normally comes with a 125 eccentric offset cam bearing capible of 1.25 gpm. That's the most most people would ever see with this pump.

Here's how mines different. I still use the same 205 pump head, but I ordered a 160 eccentric offset cam bearing capible of 1.6 gpm. I needed a bigger motor to swing that bearing, so I used the 1/2 HP M58 motor. It only pulls 2 more amps, and so far I've had no problems with breakers. This pump is a beast for carpet cleaning. It's truckmount flow and I'm still only on 2 cords with awesome vac power as well. I know I can't do tile and grout with it like most truckmounts, but that wasn't something that I was after in the first place. Some day...

The biggest reason that I went this route was impact, which you have mentioned. You can clean better and faster with greater psi and flow. Most pumps systems don't put out that flow, and thus can't maintain psi when that trigger is pulled. I can clean with two 02 jets and never drop in psi, which is what I wanted.

All in all, I'm extreamly happy with the way the machine turned out. It's just flat nasty compared to when I bought it stock. Please don't fell obligated to buy me dinner, I hope you were only kidding. I'd settle for some more info on your Demon. Does it agitate the carpet while cleaning, or just rely on heavy flow? I must say, it looks like a great system as well.

Wes- You have surprised me. The highest psi I've ever measured at the jets be it truckmount or porty is 150 psi. Your operating at 3x that. I think you may be able to do tile and grout with your system very affectively. Your total impact is higher than most truckmounts. If you snap your machine into a turbo tool it will spin very fast. Your flow in combination with with your psi at the jets is excellent. I'd be my pleasure to buy you dinner. As for your question about the demon, it does not have agitation. It relies on its high water flow rate to remove soil from carpets. I think in time cleaners will realize that flow rate is the most important variable in the extraction process. I have noticed in the last few years more people talking about it. Thanks for surprising me Mike

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Hey Mike,

I guess I'm curious how your measuring psi at the jet? Are you using a different formula then you've already mentioned, or do you have a gauge in the system somewhere? I'm only relying the gauge that I have on the machine. Plus the actual volume that I'm getting at the wand. But I'm definitely on your side about flow vs psi.

Wes-Since you use two 02 jets your total spray capacity is 04. Go to your pumptec chart to 04 total spray capacity. Follow the chart down to the closest flow rate of your machine, in this case it'd be 1.34 gpm. If you look to the psi on the left you'll see 450 psi.Thats your psi at your jets. Thats the beauty of this chart. All you need to know is your total spray capacity and flow rate and it will tell you what your psi is at your jets. Now to get your total impact run it through the impact equation I = gpm x sq. root of psi and you get an impact of 28.4. This is higher than most truckmounts. Mike

I have a 500psi Ninja but if you look closely at the pressure gauge when cleaning, you will notice that the PSI drops dramatically when you squeeze the trigger. On ours it drops to well below 200 if you are using a 4 jet wand. So keep an eye on the gauge and you might have to go to a 2 jet with smaller oriface to get the psi up where it should be.

Ideal psi for carpet in my opinion is around 350 at the wand.

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Ok, that's how I used the chart as well.

However, I've never really seen anyone identify impact like that. It's kind of like how vac motors use air watts as another way to measure their power. It would be kind of nice if most equipment manufactures used numbers like that when they build their machines. I won't hold my breath though.

I still find it hard to believe that most truck mounts can't produce this type of flow. I thought most truck mounts could easily produce 2.5 gpm or more since a lot of them are using pressure washer type pumps. Maybe they use that figure as an open flow measurement. I really don't think I'm doing anything special here. I'm sure there's others out there that have had similar results to mine. The only thing that I can think that I've done different from others is dual feed the inlets on my pump.

One thing I'll say is next on the list is an auto feed and pump out set up. This new pump has got me running buckets like crazy now. I know I can just turn down the psi, but it's too much fun.

Wes-If truckmount manufacturers were to go to a flow rate greater than 1.5 gpm at the jets they would be at risk of infringing on two of my patents. Mike

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Can you explain a little more about that?

Granted I don't have a truck mount yet, but the one's that I've used and demoed could easily produce flow over 1.5 gpm. Heck, some of them can be used as pressure washers if you wanted. How could any manufacture build a machine capable of dual wand capability if it didn't have enough flow to keep up with two wands.

http://www.adcoprocleaning.com/produ...cat=274&page=1
http://www.prochem.com/products/inde...id=9.840-831.0
http://www.interlinksupply.com/index...++++++++++++++

Those are just a few of the dozens of truck mounts out there that claim to product way over 1.5 gpm.

Either I'm missing something, or these manufactures are quite possibly violating your patents.

Wes- Thanks for the links, interesting. My patents were issued in 1999 and 2000. Prior to that you never saw flow rates. What you saw was psi and heat ratings. In my patent searches there was no mention of flow rates from any manufacturer or inventor except one, that rate was 1.3 gpm. The way I see it is the current manufacturers have 3 main problems with increasing flow. Limited size holding and recovery tanks,
increased flow decreases psi and increased flow decreases heat. They've been preaching heat and pressure for over 30 years. As for tank size limitations a high flow rate is not practical. The Prochem listed flow rate of 4.14 gpm is most likely open flow not flow at the jets. If it was at the jets they would have to refill and dump every job. These companies are aware of my patents. Other potential problems they will have with increased flow include possible overwetting and decreased chemical usage. The decreased chemical use is good for you but bad for distributors. Example, one of the three you mentioned sold demons, found it cut his chemical sales in half and discontinued the line. Mike

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Well, with the addition of auto fill and auto dump, the idea of a limited amount of water is a thing of the past.

As far as chemicals go, the more water you uses the more chemicals you use. That's how most use their dema chemical meters, the more water that it goes through it, the more chemical it draws. I don't see why chemical sales would drop because of this. If anything, they would increase.

I'm still curious to know just what your patents are exactly. How can any patent control the flow rate that one manufacture has over another. That's like Burger King trying to regulate how much seasoning McDonald's puts on it's burgers.

Wes- As far as chemicals are concerned I was speaking about the demon. There is no chemical injection in its rinse, just a high volume of clear water. Its prespray system is the only way to apply chemical. As far as the patent I claimed an improvement on existing technology. Prior to the demon no one spoke about water flow it was all about psi and heat. The patent examiner saw the value of this claim and approved it. Basically if you can show a potential improvement in a cleaning machines ability to remove soil you may have a patentable idea. Mike

Originally Posted by wesdawg67

Even though no one spoke about water flow, that doesn't mean that it wasn't there before. Manufactures have been using the same types of pumps for years, so it's not like parts have changed that much in the last ten years or so.

I believe psi and heat will still continue to be staples in demonstrating a machines cleaning ability. Say you have a dirty drive way and you go to clean it off with the hose. You turn it on and just let the water FLOW over all the dirt and contaminates stuck to the concrete, nothing happens. Then you get the idea to stick you thumb over the end of the hose to create forceful steam. Even though, your cleaning with less water (you thumb is a restriction) the dirt is blasted away the jet like steam of water. I know that isn't news to anybody.

Regarding your patent, I honestly still have no real idea what it covers. The best I can come up with is you've just "patented" the idea of flow and how it correlates to a machine. Why even have it when it seem every truck mount manufacture makes a machine that will out flow what you said they couldn't. That's what puzzles me the most.

Wes The priority date on my patents is 1996. I know for certain that no machine had a flow rate of > 1.5 gpm then. The links you showed me showed open flow not flow at the jets. If their flow at the jets is > then 1.5 gpm,which I do not believe it is, they are infringing. But it does not matter what you or I think It is what the U.S. Patent office thinks. Lets drop this subject it tires me. Mike

I have been doing Business for 3 months now, I didn't have much money for start up so I had to go with mytee 1000dx 100 PSI, I have a ton of room inside the machie, does anyone have at least a 200PSI pump that would work for this machie?

http://ccs5.com/zen/index.php?main_p...ha_filter_id=0

You might need a psi regulator, ask questions